Hello, everyone,

Has anyone had any experience with the Harmony from Orion Laser? Its base module is an IPL cousin with 4 handpieces and additional handpieces for Nd:YAG and IR. Its base price is lower than other companies. But rather than marketing as an IPL, it markets as Advanced Fluorescent Tech, which is a modified form of IPL. Anyone with any good or bad experience with this machine? It received FDA clearance for marketing just last year.

From the sounds of it, I presume you are a primary care provider looking into the laser world. Income potential with little capital. Orion very cheap low cost; rather new company based out of Israel like Syneron, has been in the laser industy total of 4 years and in USA for one year. I have tried it out however very wary of results. Very poor clinical outcomes papers if at all from this company. May leave youhigh and dry if the company goes under.

Overall risky at best. Please ask local dermatolgist and respect plastic surgeons what devices / lasers give them the best results , Im sure youll find Orion is not one of them.

I looked briefly into the Harmony. The feedback I got was that it was underpowered. I do know that they have had distribution troubles.

I looked at the Harmony about a year ago. The rep did three pulses on my chest. I had track marks for at least 6 months. The machine is very unpredictable.

Orion -- a cheap IPL device with a filter for selected wavelengths. There filter is their "scientific breakthrough" ! They are used in nail shops and hair salons in "day spas" Sometimes have a MD on site about once per year.

I went with the palomar medilux. I may upgrade to stralux and get the IR.

The medilux is a good machine to start with. It can treat hair, pigments, do photofacials. It's like the bread and butter of cosmetic medicine. add botox and fillers and it can bring good basic revenue.

I suggest this because once you generate some imcome from this relatively inexpensive machine, you can venture into more revenue generating procedures such as the Titan.

The titan goes for 85K. I've heard good things about it from multiple docs.

Good luck.

I would recommend Syneron when you are considering laser or IPL technology - they are a truly innovative and unique company featuring a combination of RF energy with optical energy.

This allows you to safely and effectively treat all skin types and even get results on lighter hair - all while using about 5o% less optical energy

I have heard good feedback regarding their Wrinkle Reduction treatments as well.

I would seriously suggest that we all check out the financials on every company prior to purchasing. If they are out of business it will not help you with warranty and especially all the promises they make?

I am an esthetician in the Midwest and have utilized both Candela GentLase and Palomar StarLux Red and Yellow handpieces for laser hair removal (LHR). I love both machines. Candela is kind of 'old school' but I get such a fabulous response for treatments 1-3 with patients. This is when the hair is more dense and coarse. Post tx 3, I often find that the pigment and texture of the hair has been reduced. In that case, I will switch to the Palomar. I find it treats fine/light hair superiorly. I would deem these two machines a great investment for those tentatively starting out. It's an exceedingly hard industry to navigate through. Another hint: Do your own research or with the aid of your financial advisor, discern when the end of the quarter is for the company through which you are purchasing your laser/ipl/etc. Boy can you bargain reps down when you find out when their 'crunch time' is.

If you can please elaborate on the syneron it sounds almost to good to be true. Thanks

Syneron is the brainchild of Patrick Bitter and Dr. Muholand from Canada both pretty much chased out of Newport Beach California as scam artists. They are the Ford Motors of lasers. Every crap device they put out has to have RF in it. Because thats the patent. Go on line for used models and you will see its worth used is worthless then check out Palamor, Cutera, Candela, Lumenis much higher resell value. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

Ok, I know this is a loaded question but I have a great laser for veins, IPL ,microderm and even a good cellulite machine but would like to add something for skin tightening and collagen formation. I see machines that try to do a litle of everything ex, Acclaim with IPL built in, thermage with a 50 % satisfaction rating or less, what really works best just for this application, is anything new coming out.Is anyone getting a 80 -90% satisfaction rating or better, how about for older clients?

Thanks for any insight

PCPMd: Your comments about Drs. Bitter and Mulholland aroused my curiousity. Also your comments about the ELOS technology. Is it your opinion that Bitter and Mulholland were exaggerating the efficacy of the Syneron technology? As I understand it the ELOS technology is the brainchild of the fellow who holds many of the basic patents for aesthetic lasers and IPL. I have noticed that the resale value of the equipment is considerably lower than most of the other leading technologies you have mentioned. I would like to hear more details about this if you have anything.

Has anyone had recent experience with the Harmony from Orion Laser?

In the past, I have used the Palomar Starlux with disappointing hair removal and skin rejuvenation results over several treatments. I also hated the chilled roller.

I have the loan of a Harmony and have only used it for one month. I have used the 540, 650 and 1064-QS (for tattoo removal) handpieces. I hear that it is phenomenal for hair removal on the first few visits but from there it is an up hill battle on all skin types. The clients I have treated for skin rejuvenation are returning for their second treatment and I am very impressed.

I also heard that Alma received a large investment in 2006 for R&D, distribution in the USA, etc. I am scheduled to go to a workshop in a few days and would like some consumer feedback beforehand.

CANexpatRN,

My training has also been with the StarLux. I agree that the red hand piece was very disappointing for LHR. Our clinic is demo-ing the Harmony from Alma this Satruday from 10-4pm with an independent rep. I'll let you know what we conclude.

The rep had mentioned the huge investment in the company that you've mentioned above. That's not really a factor for us becuase I am sure more than half of that money will go to marketing/advertising not R and R...lol.

At a recent conference I was at, quite a few providers were not speaking highly of the Harmony. Too expensive of a platform, too expensive for handpiece replacement, and the AFLT (or advance flourescent light technology) is a 'snake oil' technology.

Plus...if I have to sit with one more rep who uses the 'top hat' energy delivery analogy I'll cry...lol.

That being said, I think it's a beautiful laser! I'm a sucker for the aesthetic of a machine and it is pretty cool. I do have a girlriend on the east coast whose clinic bought the Harmony platform right before their opening and she loves it to this day, especially the 'Pixel" handpiece.

Please keep us posted on how your experience continues!

Dear CANexpat, Midwest et al:

I have used and had demos with several of the different pulsed light systems on the market and also heard a wide variety of opinions from various users relating to efficacy and other issues. It is unfortunate that nobody I know has done any type of comparitive side by side studies with the various devices. I have seen a very impressive study comparing hair reduction results with Star Lux vs. Light Sheer showing results to be virtually identical. Another big problem in doing any comparisons is that operator technique and parameters used can vary so much from user to user-- in addition to the fact that the unique characteristics of the patient have such a dramatic effect on results obtained (i.e., skin tone, hair color and density, etc.). I would ask any company trying to sell you a device for clinical data supporting their claims and a list of satisfied customers you can call for their opinion about the device. Unfortunately-- for hair removal you often don't know what you have until perhaps a year down the road. On the other hand, the verdict with vascular and pigmented lesions should be apparent very quickly. There is a lot of B.S. in this industry and it is a challenge to wade through it all.

Ron, your observations and conclusions are right on the money. I will definately ask for satisfied customer contacts and clinical data evidence.

Midwest, would your girlfriend back east be willing to add her observations re the Harmony to this discussion? I would be interested in knowing how long she has used it, tech support reliability, clinical observations, training from the company, client satisfaction, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experience with the Harmony folks this weekend.

I recently noticed quite a few Cynosure Apogee Elites on Ebay. Any thoughts on the Apogee Elite? I have used it and think it is great for hair removal and pigmentation. I have lost faith in it for skin tightening and collagen stimulation. Any thoughts on the Cynosure products?

I recently purchased a product from Europe for our practice, we went with the McCue Ultra IPL. It's been around in Europe and Asia for the last 10-15 years and in the USA for 3 going on 4 years. Great warranty, FDA approved,great service and they have a great aesthetic package if you want to really jump with both feet, Microderm, ultra sound, real nice power aesthetic table,camera ect. we were not ready for that yet. Price was right and the McCue Ultra has plenty of power. There are only three others that manufacture a similar product that can compare tech wise for more money in the world, Palomar Starlux, Candella Ellippse Flex and Lumenis One(there in trouble $$$) Watch for extra hidden costs on all three!!!!

Help. I am in a small rural family practice clinic and am looking at pulsed light and laser treatment to add a service. We have had reps from Alma, palomar and quadra here. Anyone have any advice on these and other models? Any thoughts on the safest model? Any models to avoid? Thanks for your help. Dwight

Dwight,
Sit tight and don't rush to buy anything. Contact the used vendors and get a feel for what you'll be paying between new and used. Look at what you think your practice will be doing the most of. It might make sense to buy a used Medilux rather than an new one. keep reading this site and learning. You'll save yourslef both headaches and cash.

Dwight,

I agree with TechnophobeMD. These things are expensive. I good new system is $60,000.00 and up. Test your market first. Ask your current patients what they think and start with things that do not cost much such as light chemical peels, Botox and fillers.

Do some market research and keep reading anything you can get your hands on. Also, get a subscription to Aesthetic Buyers guide. It is a good source of information but remember that they are in most cases trying to sell you something.

If you are looking at purchasing a piece of equipment call physicians that already own the equipment and see what they think.

Remember start small or you will kill yourself with overhead.

We've been using the Alma Harmony system for about 7 months now and are very happy with our results. We use 3 heads 570 AFT, ST, and Pixel. The 570 is on par with any other IPL for pigmented lesions. The ST has had solid results on par with Thermage and Titan. Pixel has been superb with most clients happy after their second treatment. We've had Fraxel clients switch to Pixel after they swore off Fraxel treatments.

And no I don't work for Alma, just a happy customer. I can't speak to when they were Orion, but they've treated us right as Alma and their technology has delivered.

Just wanted to offer something up here. I know when you rehearse a piece of equiptment the rep tries to hand you their little print out of docs you can call for referrals...yadah yadah... We all know they are getting little perks, so let's be honest with ourselves. I did some laser training with a woman who is now utilizing the Alma Harmony in North Carolina and seems to be very happy. So, if anyone wants an 'off the books' contact to discuss the Harmony check out this website:

http://www.anewvisage.com/

and ask for Jen.

Hope someone finds this helpful. And no...I don't work for Alma either. I demo-ed the unit and it just wasn't up my alley. But, it may be the right technology for someone else!

'Diplomatic in the Midwest' ;)

I recently looked at the palomar, alma, syneron, cutera and sciton IPL systems. Looking at long term costs and versitility the Sciton BBL won. This is the system that best suited my needs at this time.

LH,
I am on board with you. We are most likely purchasing the Sciton BBL on the Profile platform.

I purchased the BBL S which is the stand alone IPL system and the Sciton erbium on the profile. This will allow my nurse to use the BBL while I am resurcacing with the erbium. They gave me a great deal on the 2 systems.

I saw the demo on the BBL and was impressed.

Does anyone know whether or not the Sciton BBL has a built in calibration port similar to what Star Lux has?

Do the reps tell you anything about recommendations for periodic calibration?

I will let you know. I have my install next week.

Are you guys as excited as I am to get your machines? I'm getting one next month.

Midwest,

Talk to Bob and Rob Brindley in Minneapolis. I do not have the name of the company but it is Brindley something or other. They are great to work with so far. And no I do not get any kickbacks from them I have just been very happy with the service. Hopefully this will continue after the install. I think it will.

The biggest thing I have done when looking at technology is not just to call the people on the companies referral list as the company already knows where they stand. I searched on the internet for users of the specific technologies and called them. You would be amazaed at how nice and honest these individuals were. I called at least 20 different medispas using the technology (I may have even called your clinics). When you are spending this much money it is well worth the time.

Ron Berglund:I am a Dermatologist living in Greece and i have purchased the BBL since 2005 (upgrade of my PROFILE) and now i have upgraded it with ST.My rep told me that the BBL doesn't need any periodic calibration.

Charry: Thanks so much for the information. As a general rule, I don't usually take what the reps say as gospel in these matters. I am curious why Palomar's Star Lux IPL has a built in calibration port and many of the other leading IPL's lack this feature. How can a practitioner know that the energy he/she is delivering to the skin is truly X J/cm2 without periodic measurement or calibration? We all know that flashlamp performance diminishes over time.The question is how soon and how much? The only way to know is to have a power meter built in or sitting next to your device. It is certainly a nice feature to have built in.

Ron Berglund:I agree with you that flashlamp performance diminishes over time but on BBL the Fluence is checked by the sofware.If the energy is out of range or if there is a problem with the flashlamp a Fault message appears on the display.Anyway you have to know that BBL has dual flashlamp that is why gives a guarantee >300.000 shots and has a speed up to 2Hz.

I am currently deciding between the Sciton and Cutera laser systems. I am looking for as much information as possible on both systems in comparison. Please reply as I am close in my decison.

Lisa,

Do not make a decision until we talk.

LH

please click on my name and send me an email with your information and I can call you tomorrow. :)
thx
LA

LH

We are in the same position as Lisa. I am deciding between Sciton, Syneron, Alma Harmony, and Cutera, and would love your input.
Is there a way we can touch base?
Thanks

The reason Syneron's machines sell cheap is due to the fact that it's difficult to purchase heads. Syneron is not interested in dealing with used machines unless you want to upgrade. Syneron will charge between 10K-12K a head if you are not an existing client If you log onto any reseller you will find heads for everything but Syneron's machines. As for the quality of treatment, they are as effective for hair removal as anything I have seen and great for SR and ST treatments.

I am a contracted service engineer and have been servicing Sciton products for three years now. I remain impressed how the output from the BBL has been absolutely stable over this period. I service some handpieces with 280K shots and I need only check the output every year without having to adjust the calibration factors. Equally impressive is the precision of the device - when a particular fluence is requested, not only is the expected fluence delivered, the shot to shot variation is in the order of +/-0.5Jcm2 at worst. I also perform calibration checks on several other well known IPL's but none compare to the BBL - prove this for yourself by asking for a side-by-side comparison using a power meter. If predictable results depend on accuracy, precision and stability then the BBL has my vote.

ServiceTech

I have been using the BBL for two years outside the USA.The handpieces that you have serviced with 280k were three year devices?For all this period you haven't noticed any significant output degrade?

Of course their is an output degrade ! You can check it out yourself with a meter . As far as I know Cutera is the ONLY device with real time calibration after every single shot. I like Palamor device output however. Lum 1 may beat them all.

wps

As this is site is primarily for MD's, I feel like a bit of an intruder, however I must ask if you have monitored the output of the BBL to support your statement? You said that you prefer the output of the Palomar which suggests to me that you feel it is somehow better than the Cutera. I can not speak for the Cutera device but the Palomar is one of the devices I do service and I have found the pulse-to-pulse stability less stable than the BBL and the fluence I measure is typically only 70% - 80% of what is dialled up. Does the Cutera calibration port only check the output, or does it automatically adjust it if it is incorrect? I really have to question why it needs constant calibration - is it incapable of a maintaining a stable output for any period of time? My other concern with user calibration ports is the potential for mis-calibration due to handpiece mis-alignment or detector faults. This could potentially cause the output to be excessive. Without an external calibration port, an IPL can only decline in performance until the next service, but allow the user to influence the output and you open the door for mis-adventure.

ServiceTech,
Don't feel like an intruder at all. This site is generally for docs but all knowledgeable folks are welcome to participate. If you've got experience with the IPL and laser market, you're comments are going to be quite welcome to the majority of us who are interested in well thought out comparisons between the technology providers. Happy to have you here.

ServiceTech

The handpieces that you have serviced with 280k were three year devices?For all this period you haven't noticed any significant output degrade?I can't also understand the reason of an external calibration port.I think Lumenis like Cutera has also a calibration port in Quantum.The technician of Lumenis has told me that he recommends to owners of Quantum and Lumenis One to do the calibration once a week.I don't understand why?Anyway i am very satisfied with my BBL because i think that it's one of best.

Hi Charry,

The two BBL's with pulse counts in the 200K's will be three years old in Oct & Dec. The calibration check specifies a fluence and a range of pulse widths for each of the seven filters. The tolerance for each setting is +/-10%. I have always found the output within spec. One BBL initially produced 145J/cm2 when the setting was 20J/cm2 @ 515nm @ 20ms. (20J/cm2 x tip area of 6.75cm2 = 135J/cm2). When last checked in April it was producing 139J/cm2 for this setting. Adjusting the pulse width should not and does not affect the delivered energy.

Thanks ServiceTech

When the BBL have to be checked with a calibration?Once a year?

ServiceTech

You mean that almost after 2,5 years the output degrade was from 145J/cm2 initially to 139J/cm2 for this setting?This is almost 4% output degrade during these years.It's impressive!!!

Charry

Initially I was checking the calibration every 6 months but I am confident that an annual check will be fine for the BBL.

Thanks ServiceTech