Sciton: Joule & BBL > Sciton
I bought my Sciton Joule with laserlipo, endovenous and BBL for US $210,000. You must consider spending additional funds on the liposuction and endovenous supportive equipment including $40,000 or so for the ultrasound. Consider all this before you decide.
Ayaz Samadani M.D.
are you happy with the system
plassurg
I bought my Sciton Joule with laserlipo, endovenous and BBL for US $210,000. You must consider spending additional funds on the liposuction and endovenous supportive equipment including $40,000 or so for the ultrasound. Consider all this before you decide.
Ayaz Samadani M.D.
Note: This is a copy of my post also found on "learning from Sciton"
I recently attempted to purchase a Sciton Joule mostly due to positive reviews on this website. My local rep was very helpful, and it appeared as though the company was very reputable. They did send me to training for EVLA and all appear to be going well.
What happened next was not so positive. Because I was in a time crunch to get my new office open, I signed a contract for a round $211,000 and put $10,000 down. It was very important for me to get a loan approval prior to the end of the year for a tax deduction. Without the tax deduction I was not going to be able to afford such a big purchase. I was told that I needed to sign a contract in order for them to "build me" the laser so it would be available to me prior to the end of the year. The local rep assured me to my face in my kitchen that Sciton wasn't about to "take my money" if I was unable to secure a loan. He assured me, however, that he already went over my financials with the bank and I was preapproved (I would only need to finalize the paperwork). Unfortunately, at the last minute the bank told me that they were no longer giving loans for "startup" practices. I was then left scrambling in the last several weeks prior to the end of the year with several different banks in an attempt to secure a loan. Unfortunately, the only leasing company that would offer me alone had terrible terms (had to pay it back in several years at ~26% interest).
Since I was unable to secure the loan, just prior to the end of the year I went ahead and bought a used Sciton. My local rep went ballistic and was very unprofessional. He then told me that although he told me I would get my money back, he was not the one in charge and he was told by his "higher-ups" that they would not give my security deposit back ($10,000). I made several phone calls with the "higher-ups" and received the same answer. They said that because they had to build the laser just for me that they were unable to return my money. Actually, I only asked for $7500 back because the invested $2500 in my training. It didn't matter. After multiple diplomatic phone calls with no results, I finally threatened to sue them. I was told "good luck with your suit".
This is unbelievable to me. I receive nothing except for the training which I am willing to pay for! It has completely ruined my respect for the company. I cannot believe that a company in these bad times would risk its reputation by "stealing" my money. The person that I bought my used laser from was a rep with Sciton for ~six years. He knows of several other physicians that this has happened to. He tells me that it is absolutely not true that they built my laser prior to having a purchase order from a bank. He has three other former Sciton reps who are willing to sign affidavits for me saying the same. I really do not like lawsuits, but I feel at this point I have no other option. I would rather give $10,000 to my lawyer then Sciton, and that is saying a lot!
I still believe that Sciton has a great laser, and my used one is working great! I think the management, however, has some serious problems. I think it is important for everyone who reads this to make sure they have secured financing before they put any money down. Don't believe them when they say they need to have money up front to "build your laser". If it looks like it may be too costly, buy a used one. There are many to be had for less than half the cost of a new one.
Sincerely,
David Smith, MD
DS
Dr. Smith: Did you have your used device "certified" by Sciton so it can be covered under an extended service agreement? I am curious of the costs and details related thereto from Sciton. I have been compiling this information from a number of the other leading laser companies and find that the poilicies and pricing vary significantly from company to company. Most of the companies charge a set fee for the inspection and "certification" -- which may or may not include the first year of service coverage. Then they usually offer several options for the extent of coverage-- all at different prices.
med spa guy
@ Med spa guy
No, I did not have it certified. After I found out they would not return my deposit, I figured that I would just apply the deposit toward the "certification" but I found that they were not going to be quite so nice. They would only allow $3500 of my deposit to be applied towards the the $5000 cost of certification IF I purchased an upgrade!! Can you imagine that they have my money and will not allow me to spend it on their services UNLESS I buy something else that is very expensive? I think this is highway robbery! Just in case you think I am making this up, I have attached part of the letter that was sent to me below:
"The cost of transferring ownership of the laser is $5000 which covers the inspection visit and the documentation of the transfer within Sciton's family. ... the $5000 is an additional amount he needs to pay Sciton. Nevertheless you pointed out that we have frequently made offers to people regarding their deposits provided they make a purchase within a year's time. Here is what I think would be a more than generous offer for Dr Smith.
If he were to purchase an upgrade (you had indicated that he may wish to add Profractional) to his system and a service contract we would allow $3500 of the deposit to be applied to his transfer of ownership bring the cost down to $1500. After he has made any necessary repairs to the system we would apply the remaining $4000 to the cost of his upgrade and his service contract. If he declines this offer Sciton will claim his deposit and invoice him $5000 for the transfer plus the cost of any repairs."
Thanks,
Tim Nondorf, Controller
Well, I thought that was incredibly unfair so I had it checked out by a local repair tech. Notice that I couldn't even apply my deposit towards the repairs!! I actually had to put a new Erbium head and replace the mirror but it only cost me ~$2000 from my local guy, so I figure I saved another ~$5000 over what I would have paid Sciton to repair it. It is working great.
Hope this helps.
David Smith, MD
DS
Dr. Smith: Thanks for the additional details. Very interesting set of facts. I think you should request a letter from Sciton setting forth their legal position in declining to return your deposit. If you "lawyer up" you will most likely spend more money on legal fees than you can ever hope to receive in a suit. Perhaps some calm and factual communication directed to their management level can provide you with a reasonable resolution. Based on the facts you have laid out I cannot understand Sciton's position at all. How do they justify holding your entire deposit?
I know that some companies refuse to make their parts available to "outside technicians" based on their claim that these guys frequently mess up their devices (which is actually true in many instances). Unfortunately the "laser world" is full of similar stories from most of the "leading" companies. If more practitioners frequent this forum it may be helpful in preventing this abuse to some extent in the future. Good luck with everything.
med spa guy
Not a bad idea to request a letter concerning their legal position. What they told me is that the deposit was to "build your laser" which they claim was built specifically for me and would cost every bit of $10K to make changes for the next person buyer (my Joule was basically loaded. I'll bet that they have already sold it to someone without making any revisions, or at most very few that took little time/effort). I consider it theft and definitely not the kind of thing a reputable company would engage in.
Concerning the lawyer issue, I am lucky to have an excellent lawyer as one of my best friends. He thinks the whole thing stinks to high heaven and feels that corporations that do this type of thing need to be punished and is willing to take on my case for free if I lose and only be paid if I get a big settlement. He thinks the courts are likely to come down hard on Sciton.
DS
Dr. Smith,
I welcome an opportunity to speak with you directly to see if we can find an amicable resolution. I want you to know that I have put hours into researching your complaint.
However, I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to have a public discussion on the personal and financial details of your transaction on this blog. In addition to treading on policies protecting customer financial information, it just doesn’t feel right. I am happy to discuss the use of our lasers and light in medicine publicly and I believe that is the best use of this forum
We would like to please all of our customers all of the time. We try really hard to do that. Obviously we have not pleased you and I am sorry for that.
While we currently have differing opinions on this particular situation, I want to thank you for the kind words regarding our equipment.
Please see my contact information below. I would like to talk to you directly about the options available for resolution if you are still interested.
Doug Carrow
Director of Sales Development
Sciton, Inc.
925 Commercial St.
Palo Alto, CA 94303
Doug@Sciton
This is a quick update for all of you who have been following this post.
I am happy to say that after talking with Doug Carrow, the Director of Sales Development at Sciton, he totally "went to bat" for me and talked to the necessary people at Sciton who have agreed to return my deposit minus the monies spent on my training which is totally appropriate and all that I could ask for.
In all fairness to Sciton, I am not sure that the full details were ever clearly presented or at least understood by the decision makers. Thanks to Doug, he spent the necessary time to get to the bottom of it and present my case. My confidence in Sciton has been renewed and I hope to continue do engage in business with them in the future.
Thank you Doug!
David G. Smith, MD
DS
Just wonder if any of you have had any problems with the maintenace of the machine? I am aware of some cases where a client was scarred due to maintenace issues.
Amy
Sciton has great technology but unfortunately is run by two imbeciles who a direct a 3rd imbecile by the name of Doug Carrow to over promise there client's a financial gain without documented peer to peer results. Stay clear of Sciton and Doug Carrow...
Helen
Before you agree with them, check that all the laser scanners are included in the system!
I was not informed about the scanners and now I am facing a problem in the agreement with Sciton for a purchase of a new Joule. The local rep, who is the Sciton's exclusive sales rep in Greece, did not include the LAPG Clearscan scanner for Nd-yag laser, although it was included in his offer and was never put under discussion or negotiation before I sign the sales agreement with them! When I realise that the scanner was not included, I discussed it with them and they assured me that the scanner will be included in the system, so I proceeded with the deposit and waited for the system. I was told by my rep that I have to pay 45,000 euros in front, as Sciton will build the system for me and they needed the money before they start to buid the system. After I paid them 35,000 euros, my rep sent me an email in which he was asking me for extra 11,200 euros +VAT more for the hair removal scanner! He also offered me the choise to replace the erbium scanner with the hair removal scanner. As far as I know, the erbium MLP cannot work without the scanner and it is not safe for the patients, and I wanted this scanner in my system.
When I agreed to buy the system, I thought that all scanners are included in the system. Otherwise, I would have asked for another price. My rep told me on the phone that my system is ready in the Sciton factory, without the hair removal scanner and that if I do not want it, he will pay me back the deposit and he will sell the system to another doctor. I asked to see an official order paper or an official Sciton order list of my system, but he never sent me one. Now he is threatening me that if I do not pay him the agreed deposit, which is a total of 45,000 euros, he will hold my 35,000 euros and he will not send the system, that I am waiting for since beginning of December. When my lawer called him, he told him that he cancelled my order for my Sciton system!
What is your opinion about this Mr Carrow? Do you advise your reps to hold the doctors' money for refund in this difficult economic situation? I asked Tom Gordon to take care of this problem, as my rep seems that he is not willing to sell the system with or without the scanner and he wants to hold the money that he asked me to pay in front for the order of my tailored-made Joule system. I tried hard to secure a 100,000 euros loan from the bank for the purchase of a new Joule system. The rep added a term in our contract that he will get all the money agreed for the purchase of the new Joule, on the day that he will send the system to my practice. This means that he will be paid the last cent before I will be the owner of the system. There is only one year warranty for the system. Also, be aware that Sciton is advertising the Nd Yag as ClearScan, with the scanner included in the laser module. Is there anywhere mentioned that this is an optional tool or I do not know to read?
Now, if my system is not build or is not ready to be shipped, I prefer to pay the 10,000 euros to my lawyer and claim my money back instead of paying my rep after he insisted that he cancelled the order of my sciton system and that he will hold the 35,000 euros that I paid him for the order of system.
I am posting my case on Medical Spa MD so that all other physicians who are interested in buying a new Sciton Joule will be very carefull on what exactly their system will include, and to ask your advice on what I should now.
Dimos Psifidis MD
First of all excuse me,but I am comfused with these you has written .
1) You said that “did not include the LAPG Clearscan scanner for Nd-yag laser, although it was included in his offer and was never put under discussion or negotiation before I sign the sales agreement with them”
How he did not include the LAPG Clearscan scanner although it was written in his offer?How can you say that “was never put under discussion or negotiation”?What would be the issue of the discussion as you had his offer written in a paper?Why there was need to negotiate?
I know that all Joule systems don’t include NECESSARY the LPG ClearScan.
In 2004 when I had ordered my first Profile System I didn’t purchased the LAPG for the Nd YAG module(as I didn’t want to increase the cost and I didn’t think that it was necessary for my job) and there was no misunderstanding with my order or their offer.
In 2010 in my new Joule system I asked for the scanner on my erbium module.Their offer was clear and I was asked by them which scanner (for Contour TRL or Profractional) I wanted to buy (I preferred the LAPG- for Contour TRL- scanner) so there was again no misunderstanding .All the prices were written in their offer (paper).
2) You said that “ As far as I know, the erbium MLP cannot work without the scanner and it is not safe for the patients, and I wanted this scanner in my system.”
That is a half true.There are many exrerienced doctors who use the MLP without the scanner.OK it is safer if you have the scanner I agree with that but if you want to treat cysts,nodules,moles etc you can’t treat them with a scanner.
3) You said that “I asked to see an official order paper or an official Sciton order list of my system, but he never sent me one.”
Why do you asked for,as you had in written their offer?I don’t understand.
4) You said that “The rep added a term in our contract that he will get all the money agreed for the purchase of the new Joule, on the day that he will send the system to my practice. This means that he will be paid the last cent before I will be the owner of the system. There is only one year warranty for the system”
I think that it is a usual company’s policy (and it is not Sciton’s exclusively)
Anyway I think there was a great misunderstanding for your order and I am saying that because 8 years now never had any problems concerning my orders (1st in 2004 and 2nd in 2010) or my service on Sciton’s systems with the Greek sales rep.I was the first client for Sciton in Greece and i am very happy with their systems and their representative.That was the reason i bought again my new system from them.And this is the only true!!
Charry Chavelas ,MD
Dermatologist-Venereologist
Charry
What is square pulse and why is it better than multi-pulse IPL systems?
trim
I have to mention that i am completly satisfied with the greek representatives of sciton.The follow up,the service ,and -by the law- billing procedures are 10/10.
han
Hello Charry and thank you for your reply.
1) When I worked with Sciton Profile at a London clinic in 2006, the system had all scanners available and I was trained to work using the scanners. After I came back to Greece, I contacted with the local rep and I asked for a full system. I told them about my training and my previous experience. I also had three other offers by competitive systems, not as expensive as the Joule, but I ended to buy the Joule, because I was happy with the Profile system that I worked in the past. I liked the fast hair removal and the MLP with the erbium. Of course I was using their scanners to do my job.
I was not the owner of the Profile system, Dr Cohen from US was the owner. How should I know that a scanner is an addittional tool that is not included in the system, if the seller will not tell you that?
2) In UK where I worked all protocols for MLP included the use of the scanner. Using the scanner is safer for the patient and easier for the practitioner. When I referred to MLP, I meant the use of the erbium for the deep peel or resurfacing, not for treating moles or nodules. In my opinion, the MLP should be done with the scanner.
3) In my career I had bought three other systems from other companies. In all cases, I was sent an order list which included the description of the system on the day I was paying the deposit. This was a written proof of my purchase.
On the phone the greek rep told me that he ordered my Joule system and that it is ready to be shipped. If this is true, why doesn't he send me a written proof of my order?
4) As mentioned above, I had bought three other systems from three different companies. I did not pay them the last cent before they send me the system, in all cases there were installments to pay after I had received the system.
The problem is that I was never told by the greek rep, that the hair removal scanner is an optional tool and that if I wanted to include it in the system, the price would be 11,200 euros higher. This was announced to me, after I paid the deposit of 35,000 euros. Do you agree with this policy? OK, but it is your opinion. I wouldn't have any problem with them if I knew that the system was coming without the hair removal scanner before I agree to purchase the system. I was only asked if I want the erbium scanner. Not the hair removal scanner. If you don't believe me, I can send you their offer and the initial agreement with them, in which the hair removal scanner was included in the system. Also, the profractional scanner is not written in the agreement, but it is included in the system. This is what they told me. I was never asked if I want the profractional scanner and the hair removal scanner. I was only asked for the erbium one. And they added 5,000 euros to the initial agreement because I told them that I also want the erbium scanner. I think that it is clear, sorry if I made you confused.
So, I paid them 35,000 and then they sent me an offer for the hair removal scanner. Why didn't they send me this before I pay them the deposit? They knew that I wanted a full system with all the scanners. This is what I was discussing with them for months! The hair removal scanner was never put under an offer or a discussion with them.
I know that you co-operate all these years with them and you are trying to excuse what they did to me.
I understand that you may be happy with their service and the co-operation you have with them. At least, you have the system that you ordered, but I don't. They claim that I knew about the scanner and they threaten me that if I insist on asking for the scanner, they would keep my 35,000 deposit. Do you agree with this policy? I do not know you personally, although we talked on the phone a month ago. You are a doctor in Greece, so you know in what difficult economic situation all greek doctors are due to this crisis. Do you think that this is ethical and professional by a company which represents Sciton in Greece?
I am sorry I have a different opinion. There are plenty of other systems that are very competetive and maybe are better than Joule. I chose to buy the Joule, as I used the Profile years ago. I chose to pay them my money that I worked hard to make all these years and I also have a loan running in the bank for the purchase of this. Even if there was a misunderstanding in my order concerning this scanner, I wouldn't expect this treat by Sciton.
I also expected that Sciton should care for their reputation and customer service.
Dr Dimos Psifidis MD
ENT/Facial Plastic surgeon
P.s. Dear Han, before you declare you are completely satisfied by the greek rep, please mention what system you bought and when and the reason why you are satisfied. Thanks.
Dimos Psifidis MD
dear colleage I dont want to write a lengthy letter.I own profile system bbl and nd:yag.3,5 years old.Does deliver the job and this is the reason why I am satisfied .The representatives had immediate response to every problem I had. And unfortunatelly ,all the machines and lasers, some day are breaking down.But this is another story, with all companies if we understand the intricacies of the closed technology . Thank you.
han
Dear colleage
I am still comfused!!I don't want to excuse anyone but sorry i can't understand why are you asking for an written proof of your order?You have,as you said,the written agreement with them in which the Nd YAG scanner is included in the system (as you also said).I also don't understand how a representative can include a scanner (a Profractional scanner) in a system that hasn't be written in his offer
SCRIPTA MANET!!
It is so simple.You signed an agreement with them based on their offer.If you think that they have a bad selling policy bring them to a court.
I don't want to excuse anyone but sorry from all you said above i am still confused!!
Anyway the only think i have to repeat is this: " 8 years now never had any problems concerning my orders (1st in 2004 and 2nd in 2010) or my service on Sciton’s systems with the Greek sales rep.I was the first client for Sciton in Greece and i am very happy with their systems and their representative.That was the reason i bought again my new system from them.And this is the only true!! "
I don't want to say anything else.
Thank you!!
Charry Chavelas
M.D. Dermatologist-Venereologist
Charry
Dear all
the post is to infrom that the posts of Dr Psifidis have already taken legal route.
There will be legal action against the things which were mentioned and were totally untrue.
In addition to that Dr Psifidis is facing legal action against his proposal to the industry that he would like to be a distributor apart from an ENT doctor and apart from a plastic surgeon Doctor.
I would like to thank greek customers for standing up to this story and i am glad that our efforts as a company towards our customers is valued.
Kind Regards
Dimitris Larigos
Dimitris Larigos
Well, from what I read in these posts, the greek rep is threatening his customer who paid a deposit for buying a laser and has an issue with a scanner, right? As a doctor, I completely disagree with such behavior from any rep of any company, especially when a doctor is paying money to this guy. Sorry Mr Dimitris, but you have to know that there are many competitive lasers in the market much cheaper and better, in my opinion, than the Sciton systems, but this doctor came to you to buy his laser. And you wrote that you are taking legal actions against him? Oh my god, I think you don't want any other greek doctor as a customer, right? Is this what you mean when you are writing: 'I would like to thank greek customers for standing up to this story and i am glad that our efforts as a company towards our customers is valued.' ? no comment...
I am not sure if Sciton agrees with this policy, so I would like to hear your comments about that. It would be interesting to know if they are willing to offer a solution as they did with David Smith. In my opinion Sciton should give back the doctor's deposit cause he will not have the after-sales support from his rep, as the rep is treating him this way!
And wake up docs! If we are real colleagues, we should stand for our colleague who trusted Sciton and paid his money and the local rep is treating him this way. This is a blog where physicians write their comments free and it should stay like this!
George
Dear George, thank you for your support. I have already asked from the operator of MedicalspaMD to remove my posts and the comments that have insulted the local Sciton rep, as I am trying to reach a new sales agreement with them.
I am sure that the rep will not put Sciton reputation at risk, concerning the after-sale service.
What bothered me more was the comment posted by Charry, who acted more as a lawyer than as a colleague. He was the one who called the rep to inform him about my post in this doctors' blog. I am sure that most greek doctors are more objective and respect their colleague in such a case.
Dimos Psifidis
Mr George would you be so kind and inform us your surname and what kind of a doctor are you?
please inform us on what is the cheapest solution instead of Sciton since there are better and cheaper. More specific tell us the system that conbines BBL- ND:Yag and Erbium and share the price with us becuase unfortunately it seems that you really dont know the market so well. Have you ever tried Sciton and you know the results because everybody that has done so they know the results are unique and customers keep coming back?
Do you also know the price the mr Psifidis got since you mentioned cheaper?
When somebody purcahse something he needs to know if he is the budget or not otherwise he tries something cheaper that complies with his budget. Not everybody can have a Ferrari unfortunately but that does not mean that we shall put down the name because we cant afford it. you can always purchase a Fiat if you wish and that is called free market.
Mr George sometimes it is wise to undertake and understand all facts before reaching into faulty conclusions. Fortunately for us, you are a doctor and not a Judge and I hope that you clinical evaluations are better than your legal ones,
Sciton has nothing to do with the contract signed by both parties in greece. Sciton is an industry that has excellent equipment and technology and gets an order from the rep. The rep though needs to be assured that he will get his money.
Finally mr Psifides i suggest before critisising other people like Charrys who just pointed out 'simple logic' try and be like them with your work since Charrys is a well known doctor with great achivements with lasers. you might also learn something from him what kind of treatments you can do when you get the system. The person that informed us about your post was the industry itself ,following your emails that you wanted to become a distributor in north greece and Bulgaria.
I
Dimitris Larigos
Dear Dimitris, firstly I also disagree with George's opinion about lasers. I believe that Sciton has the best laser for laser resurfacing, otherwise I wouldn't ask to buy a Sciton laser! I also had offers from other companies before I called you to order the laser. Now, concerning the price, I never mentioned the exact price of the system that I ordered 4 months ago, and I never mentioned the synthesis of the laser. If my colleague knows a better laser that has the same clinical results as the Joule, and in a good price, I would also like to know which one this is and from which company.
Now, I want to remind you that I am not a guy who came from nowhere and asked to buy a Sciton laser because I had money to spend. I firstly used the Profile system in 2006 (6 years ago) and in a year's time I had done almost 200 laser applications (mainly with the erbium) combining with other treatments, such as the thermascan or the BBL ST, which were also included in that system (with all its scanners of course...) I also combined the laser with other treatments, like botox, cheek and chin augmentation, laser lipolysis, etc. I do not doubt that my colleague Charry has experience in lasers and I never doubted about his medical status. I have read his articles and his posts about his treatments in this site and other medical papers long time ago before I called your office to show my interest in a Sciton laser. However, you insist on denigrating my clinical knowledge and doubting on my medical abilities, claiming that I am not capable to run a laser like this, although you should know that as a surgeon I have used surgical lasers, like the CO2, which is an invasive laser, or other fiber optic lasers.
Anyway, I admit that I have no idea of lasers and that my experience is below zero, so I expect from Sciton to offer me adequate training and support, so that I would feel confident and my patients would feel safe when using the laser.
Now, when a client comes to an exclusive rep to order a product, he agrees with the company which supplies this product. When you ask a deposit from a client, this money should go to the industry for the order of the product.
This was the information that I had from your brother when I ordered the laser. I am sorry if I also misunderstood this part.
Finally for your information, on 9th March I asked with e-mail the owner of this site, to remove any posts that made you feel insulted. I am not going to post any other comment here, cause this leads to nowhere.
Dimos
Dr. David Smith, I would be interested in knowing the name of the laser tech you contacted. Please have someone in your office email Kelly at kmb11@optonline.net. Thank you.
Dr. K
Dr. K
i am investigating Sciton Joule , multiple application for plastic surgery service (International)what is cost of Sciton joule Fractional /pro fractional XC . Pro lipo plus . 1064 ND YG clear Scan. IN USA . I appreciate you help