Hello does anyone have any experience with the new lutronic spectra for tattoo removal.
The brochure detailes 4 wavelengths that should be absorbed by all tattoo inks.
Any word on the quality of the system

Hello does anyone have any experience with the new lutronic spectra for tattoo removal.
The brochure detailes 4 wavelengths that should be absorbed by all tattoo inks.
Any word on the quality of the system

Buy the Hoya. Its the industry standard. Lutronic is a pooring organized company in the US. Plus the Spectra is simply not as good as the Hoya product

Does anybody have any experience using the carbon powder for the Spectra peel? Or using carbon powder with other manufacturers?

Lutronic is very poor run organization. The products are actually engineered fairly well. The issues with the organization are internal. Specta is a above average Q switched laser. Very comperable to the Medlite C6. Hoya does have the name. However, their sales have been lacking for quite a while. Many rumors of company for sale. The most promising laser and has the buzz right now is the Qswitched from Quanta ... It has a Ruby in it for the tough colors. Its specs actually exceed Revlite and dont use the psuedo dye kits which arent that effective as a solid crystal.

The issue with Hoya is the RIDICULOUS RE CERT FEE OF 20K- in this economy that is crazy..

Laser Pro: I am trying to put together a spread sheet of the "cert fees" and extended service agreements the various companies charge. I have noticed that people are not always comparing "apples and apples" because sometimes the "cert fee" includes a year of service and other times it does not. Do you know if this is the case for Hoya ConBio or not??? If the $20K does NOT include a one year service K, how much extra would that be?

You are right-- this is often "highway robbery" and the physicians and clinic owners who have purchased devices are getting fed up!!

Glenn: The companies I have spoken with take the position that they cannot rely on third party companies to properly service their equipment so they "recommend" that purchasers obtain service and parts directly from them. Since the devices -- including the servicing-- are highly regulated by FDA and the CDRH -- there is an argument that parts, repairs and service can only be done by the "legal" manufacturer or someone authorized by the mfr.

Unfortunately-- this situation allows price gauging and is not in synch with America's traditions of "free enterprise" and free competition.

Med Spa Guy,

I agree with you that there is a aspect of validity to parts, repairs and service can only be done by the "legal" manufacturer or someone authorized by the mfr....but do a quick google search even on Vital Sign monitors, Anethesia machines, MRi's CT's etc......virtually hundereds of outfits to repair, refurbish and certify the equipment to original manufacturer specs. The reality is that it is a very important profit center to each of the laser manufacturers and they are not going to give up this portion of profits easily. From my personal experience Palomar and Cutera are the worst.

Beware: Hoya Conbio is one of those companies who:
Will not sell you ANY part unless you have THEM install it at a huge expense
Will not offer ANY tech help/phone support unless you buy their over priced service plan

I had a red aiming beam go out and even though it looks super-simple to install they refused to sell to me. They insisted that THEY install it....PURE GREED

Lutronic internal organization is a mess. Word is that there is extremely high turn over with numerous ex-employees suing company. Several industry reps have shared similar stories of this companies problems. I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole>

Lutronic internal organization is a mess. Word is that there is extremely high turn over with numerous ex-employees suing company. Several industry reps have shared similar stories of this companies problems. I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole>

Word on the street is that they are down to 10 reps with more out looking. They just fired the national sales manager. The product has was just upgraded and its really great but I would not give them a penny of my money. The organization is a mess and you will be lucky to get nay service after you purchase.

I saw on another post last week that they fired a bunch of execs. I beleive Marketing Director and National Sales director. I had some interest about a year ago but they CEO gave me the run around so I went with Hoya.

What are your needs for this laser system GLM? I would stay clear of these guys right now. The quality is in theroy not bad but instability and a very poor managment and a CEO that has no knowledge of how to run a company, Rumor is many of the good talented reps,managers have fleed Also a possible class action suit. The quality from the demo I had with my rep rivals older generation Hoya like a C4 or C6. It presented an interesting value..I think this is what some of the ex reps were excited with as it was a decent system, Then they had a rumored tweaked version to compete with Revlite by Hoya... However the newer version that one of the rumored versions/tweaks of an EX VP of Hoya. However, He also left.... With that being said .That changed the scope. Also poor beam pattern quality and burn patterns show that it isnt quite there.... I am Staying clear.. There are a few overseas versions that show good promise and value. Hoya is a pain to deal with and unrealistic with Re Cert fees.... Some of the newer QS have a ruby like DEKA and OEM rebadged version, Only time will tell.... Good luck....

[WARNING: This person has posted under a number of different names from the IP address 76.106.35.169 in Middletown Maryland. This is an indication that the person is posting false comments in an attempt to influence the discussion. - Medical Spa MD]

What are your needs for this laser system GLM? I would stay clear of these guys right now. The quality is in theroy not bad but instability and a very poor managment and a CEO that has no knowledge of how to run a company, Rumor is many of the good talented reps,managers have fleed Also a possible class action suit. The quality from the demo I had with my rep rivals older generation Hoya like a C4 or C6. It presented an interesting value..I think this is what some of the ex reps were excited with as it was a decent system, Then they had a rumored tweaked version to compete with Revlite by Hoya... However the newer version that one of the rumored versions/tweaks of an EX VP of Hoya. However, He also left.... With that being said .That changed the scope. Also poor beam pattern quality and burn patterns show that it isnt quite there.... I am Staying clear.. There are a few overseas versions that show good promise and value. Hoya is a pain to deal with and unrealistic with Re Cert fees.... Some of the newer QS have a ruby like DEKA and OEM rebadged version, Only time will tell.... Good luck....

[WARNING: This person has posted under a number of different names from the IP address 76.106.35.169 in Middletown Maryland. This is an indication that the person is posting false comments in an attempt to influence the discussion. - Medical Spa MD]

Hi, I am a Lutronic salesperson and have been so for over three years. I just wanted to clear a few things up and be very forthright in doing so.
1) Lutronics' internal organization is as good or as bad as most everyone elses. I've worked for almost all the major manufacturers at one time or another (and they all have problems of some sort). Anyone that says more about this has obviously got some ax to grind somewhere with someone or been put off somehow. They are a financially stable company which has even invested huge dollars into a new research team and center in Silicon Valley (this is a huge deal in this day and age and economy). Their technology is what sets them apart and in my humble opinion is second to none at any price!
2) If you are real and serious (and want someone to take you seriously) post your name not a psuedo name or acronym, etc...
3) As for re-cert fee's etc, most all manufacturers (Lutronic included) see them as a revenue stream and as such don't want to "give" this up to third party resources (good or bad) as well as being able to completely guarantee their work. I was a field service engineer before moving into sales many years ago so I understand the complexities of these high tech laser systems. Lutronic "only" charges $8,500 to re-certify and warranty a system for 1 yr. While this is not cheap it is reasonable given they are covering typically a $100K piece of equipment. I cannot speak to the Hoya $20K re-cert fee as I do not work for them (I do however sell against them fairly often). I know there are other manufacturers who have ridiculous huge fees associated with their equipment but at least Lutronic do not charge ridiculous consumable fees (like Fraxel/Thermage, etc).
4) Anyone who is seriously looking at any laser system, but especially a good Q-switched laser should compare the Hoya and Lutronic (even side by side if both parties agree; I would) they are both very good laser systems. I would put the Spectra up against any system, even the Revlite (which looks like it has better specs on paper). I believe the Spectra has some very distinct advantages (which of course you would expect me too, right) such as dual pulse modes. Lutronics Spectra laser offers a quasi-long pulse mode of 300us which allows you to treat more conditions than any other Q-sw laser alone. This also led to the development of their patented Spectra-peel procedure which is a no downtime skin rejuvenation procedure to remove the stratum corneum, shrink pore size and help with tone and texture. This is a nice advantage on top of the usual "laser toning", pigmented lesions and multi-colored tattoo removal.
5) Spectra's Q-switch mode is the shortest and the most stable in the industry at 5-7ns. Short pulse-width means higher peak power and more efficacy. You can fire the spectra laser on to the back of a dark magazine in rep rate mode and it is the same loud pop from shot to shot continuously. Do the same with a Hoya (or any other manufacturer) and you will hear the loud initial pops get quieter as the pulse-width stretches out and the peak power drops after the first few shots (you can view this on an oscilloscope with a very specific detector) ! A difference in pulse-width from a short 5-7ns up to a relatively long 20-30ns is easily an order of magnitude of ten or more and drastically reduces peak power (It doesn't really matter what the "joules" or energy rating says if your pulse-width is longer it will be a less effective treatment and take longer to clear pigment, etc)!
5) The flat top beam profile in the Spectra laser is the best I've seen in any laser in over twenty five years in this industry. Whomever suggested it was not a good beam profile either had a misaligned laser or just doesn't know what they are talking about. (Many manufacturers have a decent beam profile but not all and a guassian beam profile as opposed to flat top will give you a higher risk of side effects and burns).
6) Lastly as for the disgruntled former employees, if I were a former employee I might be disgruntled too. There is unfortunately a huge amount of turnover in this industry and it is very small (relatively) and most laser reps have worked for many different manufacturers over the years (myself included) or started their own companies to buy and sell used equipment or sell as independents to the manufacturers who cannot afford a real sales force. What sets each of us sales reps apart is how we deal with you our customers not only now with Lutronic (or whomever) but in the future whether I am with Lutronic or someone else. I give my prospective customers and customers alike the same honest forthright information that they need to make an intelligent informed decision which is very important in their lives and businesses. Many of my customers have been loyal long term customers of mine as I've been with several different laser companies. I look forward to helping them and others for many more years to come and will always be as honest and forthright as I can in every regard.
Good luck in your laser comparison and buying endeavors!
Cheers

Use a GOOGLE search to locate a company (I believe in Texas) called TELSAR (or "Telstar"). They have a website -- which also has a phone number so you can purchase the carbon solution for the "soft peel". This product can be used with any Q-switched Nd:YAG laser.

Hi Tommy, I have a Medlite 4, a Lutronic VRM 3, and a Q-switch Fotona, Any carbon solution by any supplier will do. The Fotona has an ACC mode which is similar to the spectra mode of the VRM 3.

For the Lutronic people, they tell you to do apply the carbon oil on the face, wait 15-20 minutes so the carbon particles are well into the pilo-sebaecous units. Then you do a first pass using the spectra mode, then do a second pass using the normal Q-switch, 7mm, 10hz, 1.6J up to 1.8J.

I have given up doing the first pass of the spectra mode, I just go straight ahead to do the Q-switch 1064. So any laser with Nd yag Q-switch will do. I gave up on the spectra mode because it is time consuming and it's purpose is just to give a superfial mild peel of dead keratin, The real issue is the Q-switch mode where the carbon particles well sipped inside the pores are blasted away, very good for white and black heads.

One bonus point though if you do own a VRM 3, because I found out recently that the ACC mode of the Fotona is very good for removing fine hair, even facial.

One interesting point, in the old days, laser surgeons would use carbon oil to enhance their laser hair removal.

Dr Nik,
Hi. Ok, here's the deal... No offense but maybe you need some more training on the Spectra laser since there is much more to it than you think. The Spectra mode is very unique and yes I'm sure there are other lasers which can mimic it's effects but it is not intended to be "just a mild superficial peel of dead keratin"...
The Spectra mode (Quasi-long pulse of 300us) heats the carbon particles which are absorbed into the pores and sebaceous glands in every direction which causes a mild 1st degree thermal effect and the body reacts in a wound healing nature (and also kills P-acny bacteria)... It is not very time consuming since running at 10 Hz can be completed in less than 2-4 minutes for a full face, so if this is too time consuming you must be just too super busy in general or your patients must not be wanting much improvement in this regard (or collagen building)... Most physicians have their techs, RN's or Estheticians run their Q-Sw lasers, not sure why you a Dr would be doing this?
The Q-Switch mode of 5-7ns is then used to ablate the particles which causes an epidermal peeling effect of 40-70 microns (depending on particle size and lotion used). You can certainly use other Q-sw lasers to do this but in my experience anything other than the Spectra laser changes pulse-widths after the first few shots (Hoya, and others) to a much longer pulse-width which then effects the ablation depth and treatment outcome (becomes very inconsistent). You can verify if your specific laser does this by firing 1064nm onto the back of a dark magazine in rep rate mode and listening for the pops or snaps to get quieter as they go on after the first several shots... To my experience the Fotona is better than Hoya at this but still not as good as the Spectra...
Another very good indicator of a quality Q-switch laser is to go into the 532 mode and turn the energy down as far as possible (Hoya doesn't go down very low in energy since the resonator becomes somewhat unstable and beam profile then becomes badly affected) then fire onto something black (burn film is the best to somewhat show the beam mode and profile, however a black magazine may work ok. Oscilloscope and an IR detector is the correct way to see this). This is where the Hoya (and others) falls short. They will cause purpura almost every time, due to the "too high" of energy being used to treat superficial pigmented lesions. Spectra on the other hand can treat a full face with a 7mm spot size and .2-.4J and the skin only become slightly erythemic and possibly edemic (which is very transient and fades quickly)...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming the Hoya (or other lasers) there are many decent systems out there (depends mostly on your wants, needs and budget as to what works best for you), just be sure what you are saying is correct and the Spectra laser, Spectra mode (and Spectra lotion) are very unique and fills a nice niche for Spectra users... :-) And yes, it works very well for hair removal of fine, vellus hairs too (Spectra mode and Q-Sw mode are both used)...
I'm not sure if Lutronic will sell this "photo-enhancing" lotion to anyone other than Lutronic customers but you could ask them by calling 888-588-7644...
Good luck.

Sorry about my misspellings above... ;)

Dr. NK and Laser Guy,

Thank you very much for your input. I will call those two company for the Carbon Lotion then I will play with my toys. My Gentlyag in skin tighten mode: 10mm, 5 Hz, energy 6 J (this is the lowest) 0.25ms (=250 micro second), seems too hot as compare to Sprecta's recommend 2J, So I increase the working distance to 12 inches, it feel OK. Is there a way to figure out the exact working distance of convert a 6 J into 2 J ( without buying a energy meter)

You guy are great. Good information.

Tommy

Tommy,
Hi. No there's really not. Your pulse-width seems to be pretty good (or correct for Skin Tightening/heating, Spectra uses 300us) however you're correct at that level of energy it's way too hot (if you're heating the carbon particles in a photo-enhancing lotion)! The idea is to create a mild 1st degree thermal reaction in the skin, not a 1st degree burn on the skin! :)
My first thought or question would be is the Gentleyag a collimated beam? I presume that it is (and believe this is what the Gentleyag uses for skin tightening and hair removal) so varying the distance won't really change the fluence or energy on tissue... 6 inches or two feet it should still be 6J delivered to tissue (if you could increase the spot size, this will lower the fluence to tissue; same energy but smaller spot will be higher energy). If it is by chance a focused beam (Lutronic call theirs a Zoom hand-piece) then you must be very careful as to not focus to a smaller spot size and create even more energy to tissue than the 6J (this is a usual problem with Q-switch lasers that don't have hand-piece to laser console feedback and automatic adjustment like the Spectra does to eliminate mistakes). If you go out even farther with a focused beam it will eventually defocus (due to the beam focusing or concentrating to a point source then crossing over and getting larger and larger) but there's no way to no exactly what spot size you have and hence the energy delivered to tissue...
Just be careful in heating these carbon particles with that much energy. The results may be good however I'm sure you would like to not cause any adverse side effects or downtime for your patients.
Laser Guy

As an update. I purchased the utronic spectra and love the laser. Its very user friendly and so far very dependable.

hi dr nik ..i agree with u about spectre mode u can use the q-switched mode directely without these spectra mode with the same result ..and and by escapping this spectra mode u gaurd against agrevation of melasma or anyhyperpig .lesion which become aggrevated by by more heat given by this spectra mode..and this vrm lutronic machine is not the strongest q-swithed machine there are many company better than it in its result in ttt of pore reduction ;tattoo removal:acne vulgaris;naevus of ota;ect..and u can bring the lutronic lotion from the other companies

First it is not recomended to use the spectra lotion or mode in melasma patients.
Second, when performed properly by performing spot tests and adjusting the fluence accordingly then "agravation" of melanocytes should be controlable.
Third as for power I do not know of any other laser aside from a Focus Naturlase that emita a quasi long pulse mode that has a better power output than the spectra. I have seen some other units from asia with the quasi long ppulse but ost were not fda approved.
Finally people quote this laser is 2j this laser is 1.9J while another is 2.1J in reality its the quality of the operators mind that renders the outcome with these minute differences.

Our practice uses a Lutronic Q switch YAG laser and gets really great results with it.

How much is the spectra laser cost?

have you seen significant improvements in treating melasma with the Spectra Laser?