Seriously children, the lady just wants kind advise. Quit trying to play god and just answer her question. Don't hate cause she didn't have to go to school as long as you for her profession.:0

stephelia and lorc,

I am not sure why you got so defensive from my post. I absolutely said nothing negative about you. All I am saying is to make sure you have good training and a physician backup. I am not sure why you both went on the attack.

In some states in the US, easthiticians can perform laser hair removal. All require physician supervision some on site some can be off site. One study tried to show that clinics not supervised by core trained physicians (plastics or derm) had increased risks. It was a very poor quality study and did not deserve to be published. Ironically, they were able to use it to pass legislation in Florida.

The reason I am recommending to have physician backup is that if something happens you have a person to back you up and take care of any complications that arise. The physician needs to understand the issues with light based therapies. Otherwise, if you have complication many physicians (especially derms) are going to try to crucify you. I promise the patients will look to physicians for care of any complications. These are just my recommendations. It is up to you if you listen or not.I also think it will be a good selling point for you as well with patients knowing that you have physician backup. It sounds a little like the wild west where you are.

By having physician backup you will not have to worry about legislature changing the laws and I promise they will. You will be set. The reason I say these things is that just about every state in the US is looking at these laws. Some state laws will change some will not. There have been some physicians in Florida that have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars because of the law changes.

So, if you do not like my input then don't listen to it.

lorc, you need to watch what you say. That was garbage talking about hate and playing god. If you are not going to benefit this site with your input then please be quiet.

LH

I apologize for seeming catty. It really wasn't my intention to attack you. Having reread my post, I can understand the misinterpretation. I just find it frustrating that it is so difficult to get sraight answers. I'll look somewhere else. Thanks for your time.

stephilia,

you need to reread your first post. You made a statement and did not ask any questions. So no-one can answer your questions unless we know what they are.

LH

In which year of med school do they teach you how to completely avoid the point of the conversation by getting caught up in semantics? I didn't ask a question in my first post, and good on ya for noticing. (GOLD STAR!) I'm merely pointing out the general disdain (towards estheticians) of the "contributors" of this site who are clearly looking out for their (collective) best interests under the guise of looking out for the patients' wellbeing. I asked questions in my SECOND post (look for these -> ? at the end of sentences) - about the statistics you no doubt have access to as a physician - in reference to the incidence of personal injury to clients NOT under medical "supervision" during laser treatments.

As a doctor, you seemingly believe yourself to be of the one profession possessing any kind of insight. I'm here to tell you that it's blatantly obvious to the rest of us that you are trying to protect your cash cow under very false pretenses. If we're to assume that medical supervision is necessary during laser treatments due to the "danger" to the patients, then shouldn't a doctor be present during the performance of all sorts of other tasks, such as learning to drive with a qualified (though non-medical) instructor, riding a train with a conductor or flying in a commercial jetliner? What if the plane crashed...who would help the victims? The proposition that a doctor be "present" is absolutely asinine. There are medical facilities all over the place, within driving distance of laser clinics. The doctors in "medically supervised" clinics are OFTEN absent during laser procedures due to their performing more important duties (such as surgeries). Even if they WERE present, what are these doctors going to do before, during or after treatments or traumas-resulting-from-treatments that can't be handled like any OTHER medical issue? In fact, I’d feel safer in the hands of a qualified and experienced esthetician in certain situations than I would with a green-horn DERMATOLOGIST.

I have PERSONALLY been to a certified plastic surgeon's office for my initial laser treatment; and did not even meet with the doctor. He was not even in the building during my treatment!!! I did not regard this as gross negligence on his part at the time, nor do I now, because...he was NOT NECESSARY. If I would have flared up in red bumps or had my skin catch bloody FIRE, I would have been rushed to a hospital anyway...so what would his role have been? Operating the phone for the 911 call? This is simply a cash-grab situation for doctors, and it's already common knowledge to the general public, so why not just fess up and help the cause you profess to be in support of...which is the WELLBEING OF THE PATIENTS? When estheticians ask questions about laser treatments…for GOD’S SAKE ANSWER THEM. If you don’t, then how ethical are you being? I apologize in advance and retroactively for those in my field who do not express themselves in a manner that commands respect from individuals such as yourselves – what with your ivy league educations and years of schooling and practice – but we are the ones in YOUR CLINICS or OUR OWN wielding the laser guns. From a “front lines” point of view there is no difference between a tech in a privately-owned salon or a doctor’s office -many techs go from one scenario to the other – so stop discriminating.

We’re here, we’re queer…get used to it.

Richard, Dexter...those are the kinds of replies that help any and everyone. Jeff Barson...run spellcheck yourself you thilly gooth (your vs. you're).

stephilia,

You need to read my post again. I did not tell you to hire a physician or to partner with a physician. I just recommended to have a physician as a back-up for your protection. But you and lorc are so bent on being martyr that you do not listen. So for now, I will not answer your posts as it seems that all you want to do is attack individuals for their insight.

LH
It's very difficult to do anything BUT attack when the attitudes of some posters in this thread are so condescending and arrogant. I mean really, go back and read the way adrisen was treated for a few spelling mistakes. I have a hard time with people who don't bother to spellcheck internet postings as well, but it really doesn't affect her ability to be a good or even great laser technician.

All I want to know is:

(oops, hit "Create Post prematurely"...heheh)

All I want to know is:

Short of nursing school, is there any kind of doctor-approved program and exam that would prepare someone to operate a laser without direct medical supervision?

stephilia,

The best you can do is get as much experience as you can with the system you purchase. Use the companies training and then get more. There are a few laser training centers in the US. One is the Laser Training Institute I think it is located in Texas but does give seminars in other cities. Their web site is www.lasertraining.org.

I hope you do not think that my posts were arrogant or condescending. I was trying to give you insight into what I feel would be beneficial for you. I would hate to see Canadian laws change and have you lose $100,000 plus.

You will also find that if you ask direct questions and appear to have done some homework before it helps. Many of us have been on this site for a while now and it gets irritating when someone comes on and asks questions without having looked at anything or done any research. If you appear to have done your homework and ask direct questions, you will likely get direct answers.

You can also check out the programs offered by the Laser Institute of America and Rockwell Industries. LIA is affiliated with the group that writes the ANSI standards for lasers.

LH and med spa guy

Thank you both for the leads. I visited the sites, and will try to find something comparable in Canada.

LH,
Grow up!!! Besides I thought you were not going to answer or respond to anymore posts?? Get a life.
Stephilia,
I don't know where you live at but in Arizona to run a class 3 or 4 medical device you need phone supervision. IPL machine you have to have a physician on site. To run a laser machine you just have to be able to get a hold of any kind of doctor for advise.(phone supervision) Class 2 device Microderm, acne, endo. You do not need a doctor. But for what ever you decide to do, you can take classes for approx $1ooo.oo per class. You can call a Laser training school in your state to find out what you specific rules are. It is hard to get a straight answer in this field because the Doc's don't want you to steal their thunder. I'm sure it also pisses them off that you can do some of the same work as them. Let's face it. We make as much money as them without the debt!! Who's smarter? Anyhow, "LH" probably has lost his license for malpractice issues. Take care and good luck!!
Oh by the way I wont be hitting spell check. I did not learn that in my school;)
lorc

Jeff,

Are you going to allow posts like this? I thought personal attacks were against site policy. As you are well aware, none of the garbage she posted about me is true and her input does nothing for the advancement of this site. She is nothing but a physician hating antagonist. I hope you block her ISP.

lorc,
I find it amazing that you are as pissed off as you are. You need to read my posts again. Nowhere in them did I say one thing negative about stephilia and if you look at her last post she thanked me for the information. I was trying to protect her interests.

So you need to stop being so pissed off at the world and either join the conversation and be constructive or just go away. Most of the beneficial information on this site is posted by the physicians.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as "pissed at the world". I thought I was being constructive? I gave Stephilia all the info I know.Oh, and I am not Physician Hating. As a matter of fact I have about 30 who work for me, including 5 family members. HMMMM? Good Day now.

It is amazing to see that NY State only requires a laser technician to complete a 1-week training session. No medical supervision is ever required. Just buy or lease a laser and set up shop!

I am a CME, Biologist, Skin care tech. and , I need to know if can I work with LED light to do facial treatment to reduce wrinkles ans spot,etc. Can some boby explaime ?? because I almost buy a LED or epi light machine which work with LED Thank RD

Laser/IPL hair removal needs to be performed by a physician. Whether your law clearly states this now or not believe me this will be the future and to spend lots of money on lasers when you wont be able to use them is not smart. Laser Hair Removal is somewhat new and lots of changes are being made to many legislations all over the US to work out loop holes. Dont waste your money and use common sense. You know you shouldnt be performing invasive procedures without a medical license and laser is INVASIVE it just is invasive in a different way due to laser/light being fairly new technology. I have never heard of an aesthitician being able to perform laser hair removal. Please use common sense people.

Doctor's and nurses burn people too. I've seen it. Except when patient gets burned from a doctor, they're well paid to keep their mouth shut. If a laser technican burn's someone, the money isn't there to pay them and so the media usually gets contacted for revenge.

To safely operate a laser one needs training, common sense, and practice/experience with the laser. Don't the majority of doctor's practicing laser hair removal have taken a one day laser workshop or 5 day training from the laser manufacturer...just like non-medical laser techs. Then it's off to work on the public. A little scary either way.

Must be expensive to pay an RN for cosmetic laser when laser techs can get paid as low as $10 and hour. That's great if one uses medical staff to operate the lasers, but when it comes to an over-saturated laser market profits must be dropping. I saw an ad for lower legs at $130 a session with a lightsheer diode....CrAzY

stephilia,

I agree that your questions are valid and I do not think you were disrespectful. These are questions that should be asked but they should also be answered scientifically.

I know that electrolysis has become part of the beauty business and was more invasive in the past. You must remember that the technology has improved and is less likely to cause complications as compared to the original. It has become much simpler to use and fewer settings. So you need to take that into account. I do see some scarring caused by too many hairs being treated a the same time in too close of proximity from electrolysis.

There are a few studies that show some increase in burns but they are not very well done. I also think they were a little bias (toward the physician as they were done by physicians with an agenda) so they are not really worth the paper they are printed on. There are no specific studies comparing a nurse to an aesthetician. So at this point no one can honestly and scientifically answer the question if I am right or you are.

I can not say that aestheticians are causing more burns in my area as it is illegal for an aesthetician to use a laser at all. They would lose their license.

I do believe that having the physician on site does protect the patient (just my bias). My nurse has done thousands of LHR procedures and she still comes to me with questions about specific patients meds etc. She is not aware of all of the contraindications as every patient that comes to my clinic gets to see me prior to their first treatment. I do not charge them for the visit. I just want to be sure that all of the bases are covered.

I do agree that there have been burns in physicians office. We have done thousands of LHR procedures and have had 4 scars from laser burns. My personal feeling is if you have not had any burns/scars then you are not doing enough procedures or you are not be aggresive enough to get good results.

I also think that you will want to have the flexibility to talk to a physician that has experience with lasers. I am not sure where you were trained about the contraindications but it is likely not enough. I doubt you got all of that in aesthetician school or from the laser company. If you feel like you know it all then watch out as I do nothing but laser aesthetic medicine and I still do not know it all. The most dangerous person in this industry is the person that thinks they know it all and that includes everyone from the aesthetician to the physician.

I hope you understand where I am coming from and you will find a physician to work closely with.

Please try to be more considerate in your remarks in an online form! Simply because someone puts up a question that you find ignorant because of your own bias, geography or the possibility that you may have something to lose economically by perpetuating the “exclusivity” of laser hair removal in your country. It’s simply diverting from what could be a beneficial debate when you have a go at someone for their poor grammar. It is my opinion that laser should be the domain of medical practitioners. However there is a lot of picking and choosing it seems in the American story of healthcare. Like hell a lot of the dubious practices which compromise patient care over profits (e.g. “preferred-provider systems”... “transport-me-across-town-to-a-surgeon-that’s-not-necessarily-the-best-in-his-field-and-my-health-insurance-only-covers-his-costs-provider systems”... “failed-highschool-students-fill-out-my-scripts-in-my-local-pharmacy-because-its-cheaper-than-having-a-pharmacist-to-do-so system”). Compromise of patient care is what “freedom” is all about though! Ha! We couldn’t stop people from doing what they wanted because they thought bargain-basement prices were better than safety? My tip: don’t be so puritanical and elitist... you too might be the next de-regulation victims if you don’t face up to things in a professional manner. If you’re going to criticise... do so in an intelligent manner! The consumer hears you tearing into others and it does NOT endear you!

Also: Did it ever occur to anyone in this forum that I may have been just doing a quick online search prior to looking at some journal data? I've had laser treatment before and I was investigating which type might be best for me to seek out in future. R.E. Post above: Try not to be so catty! It does not make you look good at all!

I just want to add that in Australia- anyone can operate an ipl laser and 3 out 5 spas offer laser hair removal, whilst nurses and pysicians are the only qualified practioners to operate abblative lasers. While there are practices that do cause burns, there are also many practices that offer well qualified services of laser hair removal, I might also add there are many doctors out there facing malpractice suits, so please dont act like estheticians arent qualified to be doing these services.