Sciton: Joule & BBL > Sciton Joule: Buy demo model or lease new?
Lazergirl,
I currently own a Sciton profractional and looked at expanding to the joule. We love our profractional but I really was not impressed with the laser lipo portion. The BBL was ok, but I feel that there are better ipl systems out there. I would recommend 3 years of service and try to work with the rep or manager on including extra years of service at no charge since they can range from $9,000 to $15,000 per year. Tell Sciton you are willing to commit if you can get these extra years at no charge, otherwise you may look at other pieces of technology. They should give you what you want
Dr. Chris
So if I am understanding this correctly Dr. Chris, you would advise to lease a new model rather then purchase a demo model?
lazergirl
Leasing is always better than buying. I dont know about your local taxation law, but with leasing, the payment is 100% tax deductible for us. With purchasing, you are stick with the technology for life.
It happened to me 2 years ago when I leased a $135,000 laser, the laser kept failing, and even the service guy had made numerous attempts to make it worked. I eventually called my leasing company to hold on the monthly payment, and I did explain to my leasing company regarding the situation. Due to the fact, this leasing company has many leasing deals with this "xxxxxxxx " laser company, subsequently, I was " exchanged" with the demo model from the manufacturer.
If you were to buy a used or demo one, you are on your own.
Just my 2 cents.
Bryan Taaoff
Thanks for the input! Anyone else have any opinions or thoughts?? I greatly appreciate any feedback!
lazergirl
If you can help it, do not buy a used laser. It is a nightmare if your pre-owned laser needs repair. Make sure you have somebody to service the machine for you before you make the purchase. Do not rely on the used laser salesman. They will give you no help when things really happen. The origiinal laser company wiil charge you big time for repair and parts. I am sure there are some decent used laser company but do your homework.
CanMD
I have a Sciton and it is an excellent laser. We have the platform with the BBL and double yag. I am not a fan of the profractional at all. We have a Fraxel Restore and even though the 2 technologies are regularly compared the results are not comparable at all.
I am a firm believer in leasing due to the fact that technology changes so fast it would be a shame to have a $100 000+ coat rack. Having said this the Sciton is a platform and can be upgrade through software upgrades so for this you may want to consider your decision based on costs, where the laser is coming from, how many hours are on it and with a complete copy of the service record. 1 year warrenty is not enough. When something goes wrong (and it will) it can be a small fortune not to mention profits lost due to down time of the laser.
One last thought I would also consider the company I am buying it from..if your buying it from a distributor who sell this equipment old or new your pretty safe, but if your buying it from someone trying to get rid of it I would be weary.
Good luck on your purchase which ever way you decide to go.
Cheers.
Shawn Solomon
Thank you! I appreciate your input and is very helpful in the decision process!
lazergirl
Lazergirl,
I currently have a Cutera XEO with Yag, Limelight, and Titan handpieces. It was last serviced in Aug 09. The equipment was acquired from a practice closing. A service contract is available through Cutera. There is a tax incentive on the purchase of medical equipment. The original price was $155,000. I have it listed for $85,000. With the tax incentive it would end up costing $55,750. (This is not an exact figure based on what tax bracket your CPA says you fall in). If interested please feel free to contact me @ 800-968-5000 ext 312 or email csenopole@chaseindustries.com
christina senopole
Sciton seems willing to negotiate price for their year end sale. I've been quoted $120K for a JOULE with BBL, SkinTyte, Contour and Profractional XC but only with a 1 yr warranty. Is that a good price? I am still negotiating with my rep.
clh
clh, Your Sciton rep will be under tremendous pressure to make his numbers (his being generic for his/her). I'd push heavily for a longer warranty since the first year is something of a gimmie. You can see by the numbers they're pushing a lot of stuff into the sale to pump up that number.
Dermgal
It appears from the thread above that the majority view is that leasing is the best option. Is that so? Are there any differing opinions? I'd like to hear from some of the laser refurbishers as to what they think.
JL MD
Sciton wants another $26,712 for 2 more years of warranty. That's ridiculously expensive and like twice as much as other laser companies, right?
clh
clh - don't know what you're getting from Sciton in the way of a warranty and how much machinery you are putting under an extended warranty, but that figure isn't far off - I don't think. I'm not saying it's worth it - because I don't think it is. But I know Syneron would have charged me about the same to extend the warranties on my lasers. I said no thanks. I am taking the risk that the machinery won't break. I figure Syneron will fix it and charge me out the rear. But I couldn't stomach the cost of the warranty.
Matt @ AMS
Looking at buying the sciton joule 7 with just the pro fractional and MLP to start - rep quoted 123k with 3 year warranty (it's 150 something with BBL minus skin tyte but we have a decent IPL already). Any thoughts if we can push for better price?
Innovamed
I wouldn't recommend purchasing a Sciton at all until you are familiar with the service costs. Sciton currently does not provide service information to third parties as it is required by law pursuant to 21 CFR 1040.10-11. This means owners of Sciton devices pay exorbitant costs for repair and maintenance, and the value of the system does not hold. As soon as you take possession of your $123,000 system, it will be worth no more than $75,000. You will look for a buyer within a few years of purchasing the unit after you realize the cost to maintain it is just not worth it. Then you will sell it for around $40,000 to a wholesaler, who will bring another sucker in for around $70,000. The unit will bounce from owner to owner until it is sold for parts to support another Sciton system temporarily. If you are perfectly fine with this scenario, then Sciton is definitely your choice.
Mickey,
I think you need to add ALL laser companies into this not just Sciton. I own lasers from Cutera, Sciton, Lumenis, Hoya ConBio, Solera and Lutronic. Every single one of them does this crap not just Sciton.
LH
LH
LH,
I have addressed, and do address, every manufacturer accordingly... with that said, there is no manufacturer who's lasers drop actual value faster than Sciton. Cutera lasers are far cheaper, to begin with. Second of all, Cutera does provide information to servicers upon request, and their service software is somewhat available to third party servicers. The same thing goes for Lumenis, and Hoya ConBio. When it comes to the comparison by price, however, Sciton stands alone with regard to original equipment price, cost of annual service, cost of parts, and secrecy with regard to information pursuant to 21 CFR 1040.10-11 and 820.170.
If you'd like to read on my rants about the rest of these manufacturers, you can search the archives.
Mickey Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
i agree totally with M.Couvertier, the cost of sciton repairs is high.And you can t go to independent repair companies.
han
but i have to say that sciton has high quality products.,
han
Mickey,
I have had the same issues with ALL of the laser companies not just Sciton. I just had to send in my BBL for repair I have not seen the bill yet but they sent me a replacement to use while mine is being repaired.
I have a Cutera that I needed a 20 cent O-ring and Cutera refuses to send me one. Of all of my lasers, my Cutera has the worst resale value. I paid 130K for it and i would be lucky to get about 20K for it today. The next problem with my Cutera is the company tends to over promise on what their laser can do.
My point is that it is not just Sciton. I have had the same experience with Cutera and Hoya ConBio. I agree that these companies should be required to sell parts to you or other laser repair techs. All of the companies ask outrageous prices for their warranties / service contracts. I do not like being held hostage by any of these companies. If I were to maintain the service contracts on all of my lasers I would be paying over 100k per year in service contracts.
LH
I am a owner of a sciton machine, as of right now my machine is down, bbl won't work and profrac won't work- I was told I'd need a new module (power supply) as well as new filters, and laser head, I also got the bbl hand piece refurbished, now my point to this is what's your opinion on buying refurbished parts vs. new, so far I have got someone in Ontario to send me the refurbished parts and I had to fly a guy from San Diego to install them, only down side is that nothing worked, so I'm waiting for the guy who sold me the parts to get back to me, but my plan now is to get reimbursed for the parts that didn't work and hoping they will send a tech to fix my machine, I agree that sciton is outrageously expensive and I'm hoping I won't have to go that way, does anyone have any tips on who to call I live in grande prairie and we have nobody that I know of who can fix these kinda of machines Edmonton would be the closest or Calgary. At this point I'm very stressed out as this is starting to effect my buisness any words of advice would be great!
Jennifer cameron
Jennifer: You are not the only sorry person that has bought unlicensed Sciton parts that don't work for Sciton equipment. I know of a few people in the Alberta market that have experienced this exact problem recently. I won't name names but they are scrambling and wishing they hadn't gone refurb or used....and are now trying to get the warranty or just buy a new Sciton and take their losses on a poor decision to buy used.
I am hearing and reading horror stories about this 'guy from Ontario' selling unauthorised used equipment and parts for the higher-value laser manufacturers (such as Sciton, Cutera, Cynosure etc). At what point do people stop to think "Buyer Beware"? Usually when its too late. Sorry Jennifer---i hope he calls you back, and when he does don't be afraid to ask him where he gets the parts and training. If it sounds shady it likely is.
For the rest of you that have posted on this topic:
Used lasers are a risky business unless you buy them direct from the manufacturer and have a warranty. No question in my mind. It's like buying a used Porsche or Ferrari and having the transmission fall out. It's expensive junk until you get it fixed...if you can afford it.
When your laser or IPL goes down you aren't treating patients and not generating revenue. Consider that factor when you think of the 'savings' by going with used or using non-OEM after market services.
Save yourself the headaches and buy or lease a new one with a 3 year warranty and keep your patients/clients in your practice.
LH: you might want to reconsider posting comments about resale values on any company's equipment. The range of cost is much more detailed than you suggested in your misleading post. Personally, my guess is you sell used, or at least advocate for used medical equipment. That puts a target on you if someone has a bad experience. Perhaps Sciton doesn't support the used laser world to your personal satisfaction which is why you led with your negative statement about the Sciton product. To me you are not credible as a result.
If you are this 'guy' or someone selling garbage on eBay and trying pass it off as 'nearly new' you are doing our industry a disservice and potentially putting patients and clients in harm's way to make a ton of money off lease returns and private purchases. Stop. Everyone knows someone this has happened to
Ask yourself: Why would you want to buy a used laser as powerful as the Sciton product and not be sure all the laser heads, software updates BBL modules etc are working properly...regardless of what the charming used equipment sales guy tells you? Did you know it will cost you more than $30,000 to recertify that used machine to protect your business? That's a financial disaster waiting to happen. You get what you pay for.
ThinkHarder
"I have a Cutera that I needed a 20 cent O-ring and Cutera refuses to send me one"
- As they should. While your layman can draw blood, or inject someone with needles, or sow stitches, for example- this isn't something your average person goes to the layman to do. What you may see as something as simple as an o-ring, the manufacturer sees as a component in a medical devices intended to provide some function to that device. By you, a layperson, conducting even a minor repair on the device- you assume liability that is not only unwarranted, but wrong. It is a medical device, and should be treated as one. The liability should always side with concern over the patient, not frugality. I am not saying you're repairing this o-ring could cause patient injury, but patient injury could be blamed on you if you don't have the proper people repairing your lasers.
"Of all of my lasers, my Cutera has the worst resale value. I paid 130K for it and i would be lucky to get about 20K for it today"
- When considering resale value, you also have to consider time. If you read my point, I said a similarly priced Sciton loses about that much value in just a year. Your Cutera will fetch a minimum of $10,000 even ten + years after manufacture.
"The next problem with my Cutera is the company tends to over promise on what their laser can do."
- If you find a claim made by a laser manufacturer that is not being met through the use of the equipment, you SHOULD report it to the FDA via FDA form 3500. I've not tested a Cutera device that is not capable of performing as stated in their FDA approvals, and advertisements I've seen, after repair.
"My point is that it is not just Sciton."
- My point wasn't that it IS just Sciton. My point was A- Scitons have the fastest loss in value, and B- Scitons are the most difficult for most 3rd parties to acquire both service information and parts for. Point C would be Sciton optics are the most expensive in the cosmetic laser world. There performance not being unique, they possess, in my experience and research, the least ownership and resale value.
Cutera and ConBio use mostly non-OEM parts. The parts that are OEM are still manufactured by third parties, and are mostly easily acquired. ESPECIALLY the optics, and in comparison with Sciton I guarantee you no experienced 3rd party rep would claim they could get parts for Sciton any easier than they could for a variety of other manufacturers. My company is one of the only to have acquired Sciton service information directly from Sciton through an FDA 21 CFR request, and we STILL don't commit ourselves to repairing Scitons because of the level of difficulty in doing "everything." We have been very successful in doing many things with Sciton lasers, but even so- they are the most difficult to maintain with regard to financial reward on our end vs. affordability on the customer end.
If that's how much you think you would be paying for a contract on all of your lasers, you need to contact me off the forum to discuss some options.
Mickey Couvertier, CBET, CLRT
Great article. Thanks for the info, it’s easy to understand. BTW, if anyone needs to fill out a FDA form 3500, I found a blank form here: http://goo.gl/YQ2BY3
Ray Vasri
We are looking at the Sciton Joule and have the opportunity to purchase the demo model with a 1 year warranty. Or would it be a wiser choice to lease a new model with a 3 year warranty?