I am very unhappy with Lumenis. I cannot get answers from them to very simple straigntforward questions like the percent surface area covered by different density treatments. Dale Koop is one of their top executives in charge of suport and he is terrible. It is like dealing with a 2 year old.

I would be very careful if you are considering buying a Lumenis Laser especially the ActiveDeepFx.

If you want any further information, please feel free to contact me at Jeff4459@aol.com

Dr. Epstein,

I agree with you. Those Laser Company executives are so arrogant. They remind me of the investment bankers. They are idiots, they make lots of money and then when something goes wrong, they take no responsibility. They don't care about your patients and they don't care about your economic well being.

How can a company sell you a $100,000 laser and then not tell you basic critical information about how to use it? And then to have an attitude? I hate to say it, but they are all the same. THey all need a swift kick in the butt.

They forget that you are the customer. They forget that you pay their salary. They also forget that you can buy one share of their stock and then you become their boss. Dr. Epstein, I would buy some stock and then go to a shareholder's meeting and complain VERY LOUDLY!!!!

Keep up the good work. Hold them accountable. Keep us informed about how things are going with them.

I hate Lumenis as well.

Dr. Goldman gives a webinar for them and he is full of crap (no bleeding, no pain, little downtime). If I believed all his misinformation and untruths I would burn and maim all my patients. You can't even ask a decent follow up question because these lumenaries are UNAVAILABLE after they are done (Elvis has left the building). Koop pays them thousands of dollars to do these marketing infomercials and then he is too much a p to ask them to clarify points they have made.

Dale Koop and Amy Easterly are worthless. Amy is just a vapid cheerleader, "Great point Dr. Goldman".."Thank you for that great webinar, Dr. Goldman"

Don't invite me to a marketing webinar full of bull. Produce some training webinars where we can get the truth and ask follow up questions.

I hate Lumenin. You arrogant, uncooperative turds.

I agree with the above, lumenis seems to be much worse than other laser retailers. I own Scition, Palomar and Lumenis products and lumenis seem to know less about there own products then any other manufacturer. I dont know if they release products prior to being fully tested and investigated. From my experience Sciton has the best customer support for technical questions, if they can answer my question they give me the direct number of the physican who would know based upon the research. The lasers themselves seem to be we made I just wish I knew how to use them effectively.

ActiveDeepFx and Lumenis

CoolScan and PIH:

When you change heads on the ActiveDeepFx, the scan mode defaults to the regular scan which can produce heat build up and post inflammatory hyperpigmentation. Dr. Goldman (in another of his false reassurances during a Marketing Webinar) states that ActiveFx does not produce PIH. He is dead wrong. Especially if you don't know that the machine defaults into this dangerous and toxic scan mode. The company does not tell you this and their support sucks (Dale Koop). When you ask about PIH they parrot what Goldman says and they don't take the time or make the effort to trouble shoot or realize that their software is designed in a manner which harms patients. This is Lumenis. This is Dale Koop.

Density 5:

Did you know that the default mode of ActiveFx is DENSITY 5? This is stupid and dangerous and can harm patients. The default mode should be Density 1. Another software glitch that Lumenis probably does not realize is dangerous because they do not listen to their doctors, they do not provide support and they dismiss and ignore questions in an arrogant and dangerous manner.

Just my opinion! I don't feel very strongly about this.

They promote CoolScan so aggressively and then they default to "regular scan"?
Plus CoolScan is not even on the main control screen! You have to go to "Options".
This is stupid and dangerous.

It is like the Ford Pinto not having air bags or a motor boat not having life preservers.

I bet they are going to charge us when they come up with the software upgrade (if they ever realize the problem).

Good work, Lumenis. I hope SOMEONE holds YOU accountable for the complications and problems you have caused.

I agree with Dr. Epstein.

I think it is irresponsible to invite current laser users to listen to the MARKETING webinars. These webinars are infomercials for the lasers and you do not get the truth. The benefits are amplified and the risks and side effects are minimized. You are falsely reassured, you don't get details of the protocols and the experts who present the webinars are not available afterwards to clarify points they have made and fill in the blanks where their brief overview is insufficient to treat patients with.

Lumenis is one fo the biggest problem companies.
They continue to host Marketing Webinars without having Training Webinars.

Getting questions answered after the webinars is almost impossible because the people at Lumenis don't care about their providers or the patients they treat. They only care about selling more lasers. They will not answer questions and they will not contact their experts for clarifications. They are too busy j rking off and counting their stock options.

Dale Koop is a Senior Vice President with Lumenis. He is in charge of physician support and training.

I asked him how deep the ActiveFx ablates when I set my laser at 125 mj.

He did not know. He would not find out. I guess he doesn't think it is important for physicians to know how deep his laser ablates.

This is a top executive at Lumenis. I am losing faith that Lumenis is a top laser company when they employ a Clown like Dale Koop.

If you buy a Lumenis Laser and Dale Koop is employed there, you will get terrible support.

Support, training and continuing education is critical to your laser success. Be careful if you are condiering Lumenis.

I agree 100% with Dr. Epstein. I am sick and tired of these arrogant laser companies and their arrogant executives failing to support us.

Thank God for MedicalSpaMD. Now we can all expose these uncaring arrogant a holes!

You pay twice as much for their CO2 Laser (almost $200,000) and then you get terrible support. I would not buy anything from Lumenis until Dale Poop is fired as their Senior Vice President in charge of Clinical Support. Make sure you ask who runs this department and if it is Dale Poop, run away from Lumenis. Save $100,000 and go with a company that will support you and answer your clinical questions.

I am not sure I would buy a laser from a company that did not provide outstanding clinical support. I was thinking about buying a Lumenis UltraPulse, but now I will certainly look into the Fraxel Re:pair and the other fractional CO2 lasers on the market.

Greetings. I had Active/Deep FX done to my face in June of 2008. I have been severely scarred from the procedure. I have ice-pick type marks all over my face, in additional to severe hyperpigmentation. The overall texture of my face has gone from smooth and virtually flawless to the appearance of a severely textured wall. I am distraught and do not know what to do. My surgeon was/is reputable and experienced, but admits he has never seen a case like this before and quite frankly, does not know how to treat me. Can you help me at all? I feel Lumenis needs to be more up-front about these issues. I have met several women whose lives have been destroyed as a result of this laser. Any input/help you could provide would be most appreciated. Thank you.

I was treated with Deep FX and Active FX in June of 2008. The settings were as follows: 20mj, shape=2, size=7, density=3. They did Deep FX-double pulse. Then, my entire face was treated with the Active FX at 100mj, 125hz, shape=3, size=7, density=3.

Wow, I wonder of the doctors who use the Lumenis UltraPulse are aware of this case? Are they discussing this case so they can learn from it and prevent this in the future? Is Lumenin involved encouraging these type of discussions so that their laser can be used to maximal benefit without complications like this?

I have the DeepFx and I have not heard a thing about this case. I have had to deal with Dale Koop the Senior VP of Physician Support and he is difficult, abrasive and arrogant. He does not answer your questions and is of almost no help when you want to figure out how to use the UltaPulse. For example, he won't tell you how deep the pulses go or what percent of the service area the machine covers at different densities. He tells you to check your owners manual and the information is not there. He is worse than worthless and he is giving Lumenis a terrible name and a black eye. I hope it does not take them very long to see that he is a cancer in their midst.

I am not happy with Lumenis either. In the last year, their clinical support has really deteriorated.

Dr Epstein,

My applause and respect to you for calling out Lumenis. Most do not have the testicular fortitude to do so and attach their name. I don't think I have heard anything so irresponsible and ridiculous as not giving the depth and surface area of the parameters. This sets users up for a HUGE liability. Imagine the plaintiff expert witness stating standard of care is knowing the effect of the parameters on skin, God forbid you have some issue.

How can one use this laser responsibly without knowing what it will do to the skin This makes the laser USELESS.

I say go back to Mr Dale Koop and demand the necessary info or a REFUND. If no satisfaction then go to step 2.

Take Lumenis to court for a refund. "Your Honor, I am suing for the full cost of the laser because the company will not disclose what it does to the skin, therefore it is worthless and can not be used. Lumenis has my 100k and I want it back.

Win or lose, I bet if this happens once things will change. Even better all the Docs listed here do it together, share the fees. Dale will listen when $1,000,000 may have to be paid out

Florida PA,

I think there is much greater potential damage to Lumenis!

Once word gets out that their physician support sucks, no one is going to buy their laser. There are at least 8 excellent options including Fraxel, Mixto, Pixel, etc, etc, etc.

Each sale that Lumenis loses because of this well deserved reputation, will cost them $150,000 plus! This can add up very quickly.

Perhaps the company with the best support will win the loyalty of the physician consumers AND their results will probably be better with fewer complications because they are all sharing information.

This is how the market will work to take care of problems like Dale Koop. If Lumenis does not take care of the problem , the market will take care of the problem. The only question is, how much money will Lumenis lose before it takes action?

Dr Cupp

I agree to a certain extent with you. Another aspect you might consider is that area reps are salesmen. They stick around the company in an area 1-2 years, those who buy, buy. Those on the fence may buy, 2 yrs passes you will not convince anyone else. Then the sales people are off selling something else. When business decreases Dale Koop will be selling cameras as the VP of another company.

Sales are soldiers for hire and only think in the here and now. Close the "next sale" then they are gone. By the time the poor reputation catches up with the company most have moved on. This leaves owners and admin scratching their heads. My point is Lumenis needs a stronger message for it to be effective.

Florida PA,

What should that message be and how can we deliver it?

They don't care about one sale. They care about 10 sales or 20 sales. They don't care about us and they don't care about our patients. They care about their stock options and bonus payments.

Maybe we should all send registered letters to Dov Ofer, CEO and the Board of Directors. Let them know how Dale Poop is running their company into the ground and how he is potentially harming patients and providers with his "negligent" support and educational efforts.

You can get all relivent addresses and contact information by going to www.Lumenis.com. Look for investor relations.

www.Lumenis.com; investor relations

pick one out and send a letter. Send a letter to them all!!!

For the biography of a Senior Manager, please click on their name.

Dov Ofer, Chief Executive Officer
Aviram Steinhart, Chief Financial Officer
Lloyd Diamond, Senior Vice President, General Manager of Surgical Strategic Business Unit
Dale Koop , Senior Vice President, General Manager of the Aesthetic Strategic Business

Amnon Harari, Senior Vice President, Research and Development
Mickey Segev, Senior Vice President for Global Operations
Gideon Sturlesi, Corporate Vice President Business Development
Robert Mann, President, Lumenis America
Eckhard Lachenauer, President, Lumenis Europe
Alex Tanaka, President of Lumenis Japan
Qiying Zhai, President, Lumenis China and APAC
Nelson Mendes, President for Latin America and the Caribbean
Shlomo Alkalay, Vice President of Global Service

Frances Harrison , Vice President of Regulatory Affairs
Ruth Shaked, Vice President of Human Resources
William Weisel, Vice President, General Counsel and Corporate Secretary

These guys are making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year plus bonus money plus stock options and they are letting us "hand out there" without support. They laugh all the way to the bank. It is ok for us to be sued or for us to face an angry patient who did not get an adequate result, but it is not ok for them to help us find the best settings for their lasers which are safe AND effective.

This WILL change. I hear the drummer beating. We are through being stupid sheep led to slaughter. Some of us have had enough. Answer our questions. Provide training and support. Stop with the "I know the settings wont' work, but they are safe". That is not good enough anymore.

Our numbers are growing. We are angry. We will take these executives and these companies out to the woodshed for a beating if we have to. We will take this public and embarrass the hell out of them. We will demand change. We will go to stockholder meetings and demand accountability. They days of the stupid doctor are OVER.

FYI,

Amen, brother. I am with you!

Wow, we are this close to buying the Lumines 1 - no active x. After hearing all this, I'm going to call the Palomar Starlux guys back.

Dr A,

Let your Lumenis Rep know that you are concerned about Luminis' clinical support. Let them know that they may lose a sale because of it. Let them know about this blog.

I had IPL with a Lumenis machine and experienced facial fat loss, along with orange peel skin texture and decreased skin elasticity. Basically the total opposite of what the procedure claims to do. I've heard of it happening from many, many people since I started posting my story online in 2003.

11.13.08 | Lissa

Comment: probably had something to do with the doctor not knowing the best protocol to use because Lumenis' clinical support is so terrible. Lumenis probably gave him some beginner settings and then abandoned him to "figure it out on his own". This is negligence on the part of Lumenis, in my opinion. We see from reading all the comments above that nothing at Lumenis has changed. Good work Lumenis. Keep up your arrogant attitude and keep listening to your corporate attorneys who tell you to say nothing and help no one because it may get you into trouble. Well . . . I hope this type of clinical outcome from YOUR LASER gets you into trouble. Maybe you need to be sent a strong message.

Kind of hard for anyone to say that their business is booming in this challenging setting. Our Lumines rep is desprateto get a sale. She emailed me a letter from the top executive's down that states to the effect, "do whatever is necessary to close any leads." with urgency.

11.12 | DrA

Comment: Lumenis and specifically Dale Koop . . . I think it might be necessary to start providing clinical support and customer service to your users. Looks like you may have lost DrA. Couldn't have happened to a nicer company or nicer guy (Dale Koop). I wouldn't be suprised if you lost more sales because of your arrogant attitude and your terrible support! Bottom line: Do your job. Provide support or your sales will plummett. This is the way the free market works. No more Ivory Tower. No more abuse of the customer. You think you are better then the rest of us? You think you can provide terrible support and get away with it? Think again, Mr. Koop! Mr. Ofer, you had better fix this problem ASAP.

I purchased the Lume One with the ND-Yag, IPL and Aluma component. This machine breaks down literally every day since the time of purchase. The company has done nothing to correct the problem. I would NEVER purchase another Lumenis product. Customer support is pitiful.

Dr. P,

Are you working with Dale Koop? What state are you in? How much did the LumOne cost?

I am going to ask Mr. Koop and Mr. Mann another question about the DeepFx. It pertains to treatment technique. I will keep you all informed about any answer that I get or don't get.

You can see that question by going to DeepFx Users Group.

We don't have to take it up the blank anymore from these arrogant laser company executives.

Go to BusinessWeek's website and read the article from March 3, 2008 on page 38.

It starts: "Memo to Coporate America: Hell now hath no fury like a customer scorned"

BusinessWeek March 3, 2008 page 38 - 42.

Dr Cupp

I do not have an answer for you. Maybe the FDA is an indirect route. If enough providers petition them you could get some attention. Make the laser companies provide anatomic relationship to parameters their laser can be set to

Copy and paste this link into your browser to go to the BusinessWeek Article.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_09/b4073038437662.htm?chan=magazine+channel_in+depth

Great Article. A must read!

So far no response from Lumenis (Mr. Koop) to my new question (see ActiveDeepFx User Group). It has been 3 days. (still no response to questions that I asked in August: 3 months ago).

They are too busy with the year-end half off sale!!

They are too busy Jer ing off! Or counting their bonus.

They wouldn't need to discount so much if they would provide support and if they would care about their providers, their users and THE PATIENTS!

From the Thermage Thread:

It all goes back to the way Laser Company Exectives treat the doctors who buy their lasers. See "Lumenis Malcontents" to see how the Lumenis Executives treat the doctors who buy their lasers. They won't even tell them how deep the laser ablates the tissue. They won't help figure out the best parameters to get the best results with minimal risk of complications and side effects. I am specifically talking about Dale Koop and Robert Mann, two top executives at Lumenis. If Dov Ofer, the CEO does not step in soon to correct this problem, he too will be help accountable.

Thermage has learned their lesson (I think). Lumenis has not learned and is as arrogant as ever. Direct all your venum at the Laser Companies who do not support the doctors who buy their lasers and therefore, by their inaction and active blocking of "clinical exchange" make treatments with their lasers much less effective and much more risky!

11.22 | MDR

To Dov Ofer (CEO of Lumenis),

Looks like you may have lost a sale. Good work guys. Keep it up. This is just starting. No one is going to buy lasers from a company as arrogant and as reckless as you!

You don't answer questions. You don't support your physician users. You are creating a hazardous environment for your physician users AND their patients. Mr. Koop is not doing his job and he is creating a hazardous environment for us all!

These are all FACTS. Just continue on the same path you are currently on and the consumers will speak and you will be judged in the market place. There are a dozen other CO2 Lasers now and competition is coming from all sides.

Doctors are sick and tired of being ignored and being mistreated by you arrogant and reckless Laser Exectives. You think you are better than the rest of us, well you are not.

Mr. Ofer, this is longer a problem for Mr. Robert Mann (President of Lumenis North America). He has failed his test. What will you do? How will YOU handle it. When will Dr. Epstein get answers to his questions. When you mistreat HIM and ignore HIM, you mistreat and ignore us all. I stand with Dr. Epstein. I have been through what he is going through and I am sick and tired of it. We take our stand here and now.

Read the comment below which was copied from MedicalSpaMD.com. This type of comment will grow and grow as you and your company continue to ignore simple questions and continues to provide very poor support. Mark my words. Doctors are pissed and fed up. I am Mad as Hell. I just read the excellent article in BusinessWeek and if that is what it takes to get you guys off your "high horses", well then "let the games begin".

"Wow, we are this close to buying the Lumines 1 - no active x. After hearing all this, I'm going to call the Palomar Starlux guys back." . . . 11.12 | DrA

Translate: If Lumenis has bad clinical support, I am NOT buying from them. I am buying my Laser from a Laser Company that has the type of support that I want and I expect! I am not going to expose myself to arrogant and reckless Laser Companies.

I have been a Lumenis customer for 10 years and I own the Lumenis One, Light Sheer and TotalFX. My customer service couldn't be better. I think if you guys are true customers then you would know to contact your rep or nurse trainer for assistance on parameters not the president of the company! Shame on any doctor to call out an executive by name and tell them how to do their job. I find some of these postings to be humorous because I can't believe real Lumenis customers would have this type of feedback. If you are real customers with real concerns then call my Lumenis rep at 702-277-6067...if you're a real customer I guarantee your questions will be answered!

I am a real customer and I have gotten horrible service!

The CEO and the President of the Company are responsible for this, they are accountable and they should fix it NOW.
They should be (and have been) called out by name. I hope more doctors will hold these guy accountable. They seem to think they can hide behind their big corporate egos and salaries.

I should not have to call my rep or your rep or a trainer when I have high level question or concern.
Sometimes you don't get the correct or best answer from your rep or the trainer.
Dale Koop in a Senior VP in Charge of Support and Training. He is responsible. He will be held accountable by me.
My questions should be answered (and they will be answered, it may take more time, but they will be answered).

I have been dealing with Dale Koop and Robert Mann, two top executives at Lumenis and they have been worse then horrible. Their names are Dale Koop and Robert Mann. Dale Koop and Robert Mann. My name is Jeffrey E. Epstein, MD. You can contact me if you have further questions about the issues I have had with these two gentlemen.

Now you have their names and my name. I would be happy to debate them and spell out the issues right on the blog in full view of everyone. They should be ashamed of themselves and they should be ashamed of the service and support they provide. I know good service and support and I know crappy service and support. I am very proud to be calling them out in this public forum. Bring it on!

I will let you all know when my questions are answered and I will let you know when they have FIXED the problem with their support.

If anyone has any questions, you can contact me. My email is Jeff4459@aol.com. Executives are accountable for their employees and their companies. Executives SHOULD BE named and WILL BE named. If a company is not willing to provide excellent support, they shouldn't be selling lasers. I am a very experienced and expert user, I will not tolerate this type of behavior expecially from arrogant Executives who don't do their jobs.

I will let you all know when my questions are answered and I start getting the type of support you would expect from a big Laser Company after you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with them and you count on them. Until I get this support, I will continue to name names and I will continue to "call out" the big boys because I think what they are doing is WRONG and needs to see the light of day. There is a big problem here and I am determined to get it fixed. I am not a whiner or complainer, but I do beat up bullies and arrogant executive when it is justified. This is one of those times.

Feel free to contact Dale Koop, Robert Mann or Dov Ofer at Lumenis and tell them to contact me. I have contacted them many times and I get no satisfaction. I am done asking for help. I am tired of being ignored. I am ready to fight! There will be no talk until they answer some very basic questions that they have thus far refused to answer (and can answer). My rep and my trainer are excellent, but my questions are at a higher level. Sometimes I get inconsistent answers and I want to know which is accurate. Again, you can contact me for details if you have any interest.

I am determined. I am angry (did you get that?). I am right. And I am in no mood to compromise.

Did I mention that I am angry?

Dr. Epstein,
You obviously have some personal issues here. This seems to be a personal bashing and it is unfortunate. If you have questions why don't you post them here online where I or another physician can help you. Are you a dermatologist or a plastic surgeon? I have never in my 35 years of medicine experienced another physician act so immature. I wish you luck Dr. Epstein and hope your patients don't see your rage.

Dr T

I have to speak in Dr Epstein's defense here. I know Dr Epstein on a professional level and can say your opinions and assumptions are unfounded. I also know there are literally scores of physicians here and in other clinical info sharing areas that will agree with me. Dr Epstein is quite experienced and a pioneer when it comes to clinical exchange of aesthetic medicine standards and principles. He has hosted teaching and information sharing seminars at no cost to the attendants.

I have personally experienced Dr Epstein's professionalism and fortitude in a three way conversation with a board member of Reliant corp. Our conversation consisted of topics local reps and educators had no knowledge or understanding of, they are not physicians or scientists. I now have a more in depth understanding of Fraxel erbium. I get superior results and have an excellent reputation in my area because Dr Epstein was not afraid to knock on some doors. I do not own a Lumenis product but it seems that Dr Epstein is not the only physician that is angry here due to lack of info and service.

I do not know where you have been practicing for 35 yrs but in my 9 yrs of practice, I see physician behaviors that would shock a first grade teacher on a regular basis. If Dr Epstein is angry there is a reason. How in good conscience can you judge your experience with Lumenis to his?

I have to say "Dr T" shame on you to tell another physician how to do his job, or when he should or should not complain.

Dr. T.

The issue is that Dr. Epstein is getting terrible support. Peroid.

Sometimes you have to throw a tantrum (like a 2 year old) to get some attention from the arrogant Laser Executives (who act like 3 year olds). I applaude Dr. Epstein for having the guts to do this.

Why don't you go to "DeepActiveFx Users Group" and post some of your opinions. There are a few great questions there which would benefit from active discussion. I have not seen you post there.

Also, Dr. Epstein has provided his name and email. Why don't you contact him to find out what HIS issues are. Just because you have gotten adequate support DOES NOT mean that eveyone has. Seems like you only care about yourself, while Dr. Epstein is trying to raise the bar for EVERYONE. Maybe you are a Lumenis Rep or the Lumenis Hachett Man.

Dr. T, if you are sincere and a real doctor, I hope you will visit "DeepActiveFx User Group" and post your opinions and I hope you will contact Dr. Epstein before "rushing to judgement" and making unfounded assumptions.

"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. " -- Catcher on the Rye

Dr. T, do you have a cause or are you just going to die of boredom and inertia. Do you just "take it" from "the man"?

If you are truly a doctor, you have seen much worse behavior from other doctors or do you live in a cave or are you telling half-truths?

I admire Dr. Epstein for speaking up and putting himself "out there" to get something fixed. Lumenis is not the only Laser Company that provides inadequate support. Maybe it will have to be beat up to make a point and to set an example.

Dr. T, have you heard of Total Quality Improvement? Try to Google this. Without feedback (and sometimes it has to be blunt and harsh), systems and people don't improve and don't get better. Sometimes the system has to change and sometimes the PEOPLE have to change.

Hopefully Lumenis will get the message very soon and fix the problem. If not, I doubt Dr. Epstein will stop acting "immaturely" and many others may just come out of the woodwork to join him.

Oh, to be young again!

Dr. Epstein,

You too neglected to answer one question. Are you a Dermatologist or a Plastic Surgeon? As a member of ASLMS and the AAD I am guessing you are not working in your field of medicine. As a dermatologist, I too would make mistakes if I were delivering a baby or "moonlighting" in internal medicine. The Lumenis company makes medical grade lasers, in the right hands they are the best in the industry, in the wrong hands they can be dangerous. I strongly encourage you to go back to your speacialty and leave skin care to those who actual went to school for it. Please send your patients to a dermatologist or plastic surgeon, they are qualified to fix the the mistakes you have made. I don't mean to be harsh, but you would say the same to me if I created complications while moonlighting out of my speacialty. It is much easier to equipment, rather than the user.

Dr. Kim

Funny, I just looked up Dr. Epstein....he is internal medicine. Dr. Kim, I agree with your comments 100%. I own the TotalFX system and have never had an issue....I have my Rep on speed dial and she always answers. Also legally, non-physicans aren't aloud to give out "recommended settings". If you want settings or depths of treatment, contact a Dermatologist who has your type of laser, I am sure they can give you the correct answer.

Please leave skincare to those who went to school for it. There are better ways to make extra money besides opening a Dermacare.

Evans

I think we are getting a little off track here. The divine right Derms and PS have to skin treatments is discussed under "ASDS pushes med spa bill in California".

I am not a Plastic Surgeon or a Derm but I can tell you a neat trick they use to make extra money.

They hire me to do laser cosmetic procedures in their office even leasing lasers on a day use basis. The simple truth is some PS and Derms have very little knowledge of lasers and don't care to. Also you do not need to be a PS or Derm to have an in depth understanding or be an experienced user.

There was an Aesthetic Extender Symposium in Miami last month. The teaching lectures were given by PS, Derms, "non core" MD's and PA's. It covered topics from fillers to fractional CO2.

Oh by the way I am also a member of ASLMS, you just need to know a member and pay your money

Funny, I just looked up Dr. Evans and Dr. Kim. Turns out they are A-Holes. I saw it on their website.

I knew guys like you in medical school. You was a-holes then and you are still a-holes.

You guys never change.

So what do you think about Lumenis providing terrible support?

Who do they sell their lasers to, just Derms and Plastica Surgeons? No they sell lots to "non-core" providers.

Also, Dr. Kim and Dr. Evans, have you contacted Dr. Epstein? Do you know what his issues are? Do you know if he has had any complications? Do you know how many treatments he has done? Do you know if he is full time or part time. Do you know anything except that you are arrogane a-holes?

Are YOU really doctors? Why would you be in favor of terrible support from a laser company? Are you Lumenis Reps or Lumenis Executives of the Hachett Guys from Lumenis?

Hey Kim and Evans,

If you guys are such hot shots, why don't you go to ActiveDeepFx Users Group and tell eveyone how YOU do the treatments? If you are so smart that you don't need any support, training, continuing education, why don't you share your genius with the rest of us?

Oh . . . I forgot . . . you aren't really doctors are you?